easy wet sump solution ?

stu · May 16, 2014

Hi

my 750/MkV, left for over a week and the straight 40 engine oil is now sitting down in the sump and not up in the oil tank. I dont like working the sump bolt more than needs be to minimise wear on the engine case threads so my question is this. What about kicking the engine over without spark to pump the oil back up into the tank then firing up once the oiltank is about 2/3rds full ? Any issues to this other than the effort of kicking over the engine for a couple of minutes ?? I usually use the bike every couple of days and it usually coughs a bit oil back into the tank on start up anyway.

cheers
Stu

L.A.B. · May 16, 2014

stu said:
What about kicking the engine over without spark to pump the oil back up into the tank then firing up once the oiltank is about 2/3rds full ? Any issues to this other than the effort of kicking over the engine for a couple of minutes ??

I think you might find it will take you considerably longer than "a couple of minutes" to kick any significant amount of oil back to the tank, even if you take the spark plugs out.

stu · May 16, 2014

Hi Lab

i just got the oil up onto the low level mark kicking over, plugs in, maybe 5 minutes tops ? Its pretty thick cold oil though. Just wondered if there are any issues to doing this as a quick fix for start up once in a while ?

olChris · May 16, 2014

IMO, if there is a need/desire to pump the oil from the sump to the oil tank manually via kicking strokes, as LAB indicates will take quite a bit of time,.. 1 kick might push 20-30 mml (big tbspoon ) and to replace 2000 mml's (2ltrs)will take a 100 pumps or so !!!!!... (5 -10 kicks for me then puckit)
If it drains 2.8 ltrs over a cuppla day then it may be necessary to investigate "wet sumping" through the search button or just fit a ball valve in the oil inlet line as many others have done... There are several cures for your problem and the choice is your's..

olChris · May 16, 2014

stu said:
Hi Lab

i just got the oil up onto the low level mark kicking over, plugs in, maybe 5 minutes tops ? Its pretty thick cold oil though. Just wondered if there are any issues to doing this as a quick fix for start up once in a while ?

No real issues, but..............

worntorn · May 16, 2014

If you pull the plugs every time then those threads in the aluminium head are subject to wear from this just like the drain plug.
Also there would be some additional wear on the kickstarter mechanism over time.
Might be time to tighten up the oil pump clearance if the oil is running down into the sump this quickly.
Glen

JimC · May 16, 2014

If wet sumping is a issue I would send the timing cover and oil pump to AMR in Arizona. I would never put anything between the oil tank and oil pump input except an unobstructed oil line.

L.A.B. · May 16, 2014

stu said:
I just got the oil up onto the low level mark kicking over, plugs in, maybe 5 minutes tops ? Its pretty thick cold oil though. Just wondered if there are any issues to doing this as a quick fix for start up once in a while ?

Just keep a spare kickstart pawl handy!

Kicking it over for that length of time isn't something I'd want to do. I know others will probably advise you to just start it up, regardless of the fact that the oil is in the sump, although the oil drag can make starting more difficult.

What I prefer to do, if I know I'm probably not going to be using the bike for a while, is to transfer the majority of the oil tank contents to a container using an oil suction gun, and then and pour the oil back into the tank shortly before I intend to start the bike again. Obviously when using this method it is important not to forget about putting the oil back in the tank!

toppy · May 16, 2014

I have a valve in feed line from John Epp it has a built in switch which is wired up such that there will be no sparks if I forget to turn it on. So no worries of forgetting or wet sumping an no messi about just turn valve as you reach for kickstart lever.

stu · May 16, 2014

I got the bike with an anti wet-sump valve on the oil feed line but removed it - i'd heard a few horror stories (tho it was a fairly basic design). Generally on compression, sitting on the centre stand with the thick straight 40 oil, bike will take a good week or 2 to drain out - usually fine since its my regular transit. If i can see the gauze in bottom of the oil tank i figure its drained down enough to be an issue. The sump bolt is very small tho and only maybe 5 or 6 threads long ? It seems awfy pokey for something that being torqued up every oil change and the consequences of a stripped thread here seem pretty dire. I think the 850s put a 2 part sump bolt on to remedy this but not sure theres a retro fix for the 750 ?

pete.v · May 16, 2014

I know I have mentioned it before but one may want to mod the sump drain to incorparate something like this.
But as with opening the ball valve, someone will surely comment on the detriment of not closing it. :roll:

Hobot · May 16, 2014

There are a hand full of stories over the decades of winter or longer stored bikes getting a few kick overs now and then with idea to keep things lubed and free and IIRC of comnoz and some others turning and turning cold engine to pump oil before first kick off to find they'd ruined cam and lifter so had to start over again as wise as hobot on benefit of some good wet sump by then and going straight to cam break in rpm soon as it will. Anything that can snag under bikes off road or loading will get sagged in my conditions so have put that nice idea out of my mind. What I did on Peel was install a site and drain tube out of oil tank drain so at a glance knew if enough oil still in tank to feed pump long enough to get more pumped back to tank than leaving or better add a few oz's to feed pump if tank about empty. Wet sump smoke is a good way to evaluate ring/bore condition and DS crank seal holding, breather function and some cam splash oil w/o the cam bath feature but can't think of any downsides beyond that.

baz · May 16, 2014

has anyone on here had first hand experience of an anti wet sump valve go wrong? i have been using them on nortons and other british bikes for over 25 years never had a problem they were fitted as standard on velocettes i believe

Hobot · May 16, 2014

https://www.google.com/#q=norton+anti+s ... e+failures

Bernhard · May 16, 2014

baz said:
has anyone on here had first hand experience of an anti wet sump valve go wrong? i have been using them on nortons and other british bikes for over 25 years never had a problem they were fitted as standard on velocettes i believe

They were fitted on 350/500 Velos from about 1960 onwards.
They do not as a rule go wrong, but the oil tank does need a cotton oil filter like on the Velos, also the oil pipe below the valve needs to be primed with oil or it will not work-you will not get any oil into the engine at all :!:

Nater_Potater · May 16, 2014

hobot said:
...turning and turning cold engine to pump oil before first kick off to find they'd ruined cam and lifter...

+1 It's the cam and followers that suffer from lack of the hydroplaning effects of the oil. Not only is the contact area extremely small, but the valve springs are always pressing down. Add to that the fact that the cam turns half as slow as the crank. Fire it up and let the oil in the sump splash on the cam until the pump system comes online.

pete.v · May 16, 2014

Yes, anyone emptying the sump should add 5 to 7 oz back in. This is the normal amount of residual oil and leaves something for the pump to grab.

Nigeldtr · May 16, 2014

My commando bottom end was ruined by the PO using a velocette type valve, may be great for roller big ends but totally deadly for a hot commando engine on tick over with plain bearings! Anyone using these is terminating his engine

Hobot · May 16, 2014

To me it Boils down to known risk of failure events vs philosophical concerns over harder kick offs and dreaded popped out DS crank seal. Would be a duller forum if everyone was in same camp of beliefs and practices so we await more reports of rare wet sump horrors vs less rare dry sumps starts that effectively stay dry. At least the Combats with two ways of oil back to the tank are made to wet sump and handle it no problemo. Takes at least 30 sec on new build 2000+ rpm to see oil return after flooding head & pumping crank end till drips out sump plug. Takes like 10 seconds for oil to spittle out on cold starts though a few seconds less if crank left with pistons near TDC.

1up3down · May 16, 2014

At least the Combats with two ways of oil back to the tank are made to wet sump and handle it no problemo.

Steve, other than the known return line what is the other way that Combats and not 850s have to return oil to the tank?

easy wet sump solution ?

stu

L.A.B.

Moderator

stu

olChris

olChris

worntorn

JimC

L.A.B.

Moderator

toppy

stu

pete.v

Hobot

baz

Hobot

Bernhard

Nater_Potater

pete.v

Nigeldtr

Hobot

1up3down

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