Dunstall Commando (2015)

pierodn · May 15, 2015

Here in Italy on the title there was wrote only "Norton 750" without type Fastback, Roadster, S, etc.
All the Commando here are Norton 750.
The question is: had the Commando Dunstall, 750/810/850 a title in his name as a bike builder?
Thank you.
Piero

Rohan · May 15, 2015

Yes, Paul Dunstall was registered in the UK as a bike builder in his own right.
Bikes with the Dunstall ID plates fitted have appeared on ebay now and then.

Watch though that those bikes were the full Dunstall version, in various forms over the years.
And customers could also buy all the bits separately, and convert their own bikes, to varying degrees.

Note too that as well as Dunstall Commando versions, Dunstall also did Dominators, Atlas, Triumphs, BSAs, Hondas, Suzukis and likely more.
And Dunstall still exists today, as a reconstituted modern Dunstall.

http://www.woodgate.org/dunstall/models.html
http://www.woodgate.org/dunstall/gallery.html
http://www.woodgate.org/dunstall/history.html

Nowhere on the rego document for my early Norton dommie did it ever say Dominator, it was just Norton 500.
Not that I had it new or anything...

74ok · May 15, 2015

any value in a used dunstall 2 into 1 into 2 exhaust these days?

dave M · May 15, 2015

Piero, As Rohan says, Dunstall was a registered manufacturer, but I believe the bulk of his sales was in selling the components separately. Here In Hong Kong, for example, the Norton agent was also the Dunstall agent and it was quite common to see 'Dunstallized' cafe racers in Hong Kong, but all of them were registered as Norton Commandos.

1up3down · May 15, 2015

any value in a used dunstall 2 into 1 into 2 exhaust these days?

I did not know that Paul Dunstall sold that exhaust under his name?

In 1972 I bought a new Combat and soon thereafter bought a "Dr Blair" 2 into 1 into 2 exhaust system

it was supposed to add a couple more horsepower and I was 21 so very important to me at that time, stock Combat not fast enough....

the big downside on installation was that my center stand had to go, would not fit with that exhaust

Rohan · May 15, 2015

1up3down said:
I did not know that Paul Dunstall sold that exhaust under his name?

Regardless of what they were called, my word they did.
Dunstall could also supply a special centrestand to be used with them, if a centrestand was required.

Thanks to Ken for previously posting this pic.
pictures-dunstall-exhaust-t8494.html

74ok · May 16, 2015

i was looking at a "best offer" ad that described them as "dunstall exhaust", how much they go for nowadays?

1up3down said:
any value in a used dunstall 2 into 1 into 2 exhaust these days?

Click to expand...

I did not know that Paul Dunstall sold that exhaust under his name?

In 1972 I bought a new Combat and soon thereafter bought a "Dr Blair" 2 into 1 into 2 exhaust system

it was supposed to add a couple more horsepower and I was 21 so very important to me at that time, stock Combat not fast enough....

the big downside on installation was that my center stand had to go, would not fit with that exhaust

blair-into-into-exhaust-system-t17077.html#p211746

One and the Same .

" In the search for a more efficient exhaust system without additional noise, Dunstall worked closely with Dr Gordon Blair of Queens University Belfast, Ireland. The exhaust pipe design (two-into-one-back-into-two) was entirely Dr Blair's while one of Dr Blair's students, Sam Coates, and Paul Dunstall helped to work out the silencer design and dimensions "

http://www.dunstall.com/

blair-into-into-exhaust-system-t17077.html

wot · May 17, 2015

I had two Dunstalls, a 1968 and a 1971 810 Sleeper. I was the second owner of each, and got the original titles and ordering and purchase paperwork when with the bikes. Both were imported into the U.S. by the original owners, bought from Paul Dunstall. Each title was for a Norton motorcycle – no mention of Dunstall. The ’68 had Dunstall stickers on the gas tank and the ’71 had ‘Dunstall 810’ stickers on the side covers, but there were no Dunstall ID plates or tags. The frames were stamped same as a production Norton, the ’68 was serial number 127900, engine number 20M3127900 and the ’71 was serial number 147980, engine number 20M3S147890. The ’68 had the points behind the cylinders – not cam driven, and it also had the early non-reinforced frame. These were both complete original Dunstall bikes as built by Dunstall. Sold them several years ago.

Rohan · May 18, 2015

For quite some time, Commandos didn't have the red VIN plate either.
But at some point, it became mandatory for the factory to fit them.
Probably applies to Dunstalls also, so early ones won't have them either.
So the rego papers may not refer to Dunstalls as such...

Of course, it may also be that the problem lies elsewhere.
Can recall someone going to get his Matchless all legal and roadworthy.
Said the computer wouldn't accept Matchless, so they did it for him as a Triumph. !
And had the papers to prove it ....
Bureaucracy gone mad ?

Danno · May 18, 2015

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in various threads on Dunstall machines is the headwork. As I remember, Dunstall re-angled the inlet valve for better breathing. It was only a few degrees difference in angle, but apparently produced noticeable gains. Does anyone still do this mod?

pierodn · May 18, 2015

dave M said:
Piero, As Rohan says, Dunstall was a registered manufacturer, but I believe the bulk of his sales was in selling the components separately. Here In Hong Kong, for example, the Norton agent was also the Dunstall agent and it was quite common to see 'Dunstallized' cafe racers in Hong Kong, but all of them were registered as Norton Commandos.

Hi Dave,
I mean.
My Dunstall 810 comes from the first owner, an english man that lived in Italy.
He had bought the bike as 810 Dunstall, not another type!
The NOC says the bike is a black roadster!!!!'
Thank you.
Piero

dynodave · May 18, 2015

pierodn said:
dave M said:

Piero, As Rohan says, Dunstall was a registered manufacturer, but I believe the bulk of his sales was in selling the components separately. Here In Hong Kong, for example, the Norton agent was also the Dunstall agent and it was quite common to see 'Dunstallized' cafe racers in Hong Kong, but all of them were registered as Norton Commandos.

Click to expand...

Hi Dave,
I mean.
My Dunstall 810 comes from the first owner, an english man that lived in Italy.
He had bought the bike as 810 Dunstall, not another type!
The NOC says the bike is a black roadster!!!!'
Thank you.
Piero

Norton sold a commando to Paul Dunstall the dealer.
The body style norton sold was black roadster
Dunstall did a 810 conversion to it...

Most literature shows Dunstall as a manufacturer recognized by the British Government for 1966 only and A race sanctioning body in 1967. My 68 Atlas fully built by Dunstall as a Sprint and documented as sold to Paul Dunstall from the Norton factory is a "Norton" and not a Dunstall. It is not a 1966/67.

added: you can see the closest version of my bike here:
http://www.woodgate.org/dunstall/69nor2.html
and here:
http://atlanticgreen.com/dunstall.htm
My 68 atlas# is 200 VIN after the start of commando# and 400 VIN before the last atlas VIN which was still 1968 model year. (VIN is all bikes all models combined not just commando and/or atlas)

In short, I interpret that there is no such thing as a "Dunstall" branded Commando. Only "Norton" Commando tuned/modified by Dunstall and graciously labeled as such.

Here in the USA in most states the model is alway "commando" never roadster, interstate, hi-rider, fastback

lcrken · May 18, 2015

Danno said:
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in various threads on Dunstall machines is the headwork. As I remember, Dunstall re-angled the inlet valve for better breathing. It was only a few degrees difference in angle, but apparently produced noticeable gains. Does anyone still do this mod?

The original Dunstall big valve conversion re-angled the inlet by 1.5 degrees, allowing a 1.625" inlet valve. To do so, he had to use the larger intake valve guides, same size as later used by Norton for the 850 engine. Modern conversions to 750 heads typically just use the larger 850 guides. He also did the same mod to 850 heads, but I don't know what size guides he had to use. Larger than the stock 850, but I don't know how much.

Not all the Dunstall Commandos had the big valve head conversion. The '73 catalog lists the Mk 1 "DUNSTALL NORTON 850" as a standard Commando fitted with the Blair exhaust system, with center stand to fit. The Mk 2 was the same, but with ported head (not big valve) and 10:1 CR. The Mk 3 had all the Dunstall glass fibre bodywork, clip-ons, big valve head, Blair exhausts, and 10:1 CR. The Mk 4 had all that plus the Dunstall twin front disk brake system. None of them mention a Dunstall cam, but I'm sure he would have built any of them with it if a customer ordered it.

I don't have as much info on the earlier Dunstall 750 bikes. The ones I've seen had all the glass fibre bits and Dunstall silencers with standard style head pipes. Standard spec was 10:1 pistons, Dunstall cam, and ported heads. You could get the 810 kit and the big valve head as options.

I know he built some 650 and 750 featherbed bikes as "Dunstall Dominators", with café racer styling, and various engine mods as desired, but don't know a lot about them, except that he used a lot of chrome plating! I had a friend many years ago who owned an original Dunstall Dominator 750, but that's the only one I've seen.

Ken

pierodn · May 19, 2015

Hi Dyno,
Here in Italy the licenze says only "Norton 750 or 850", neither Commando!
Ciao.
Piero

dave M · May 19, 2015

Piero, The point I and others are making is that it seems from the experience of a few people on here, very few genuine Dunstall machines or Dunstall equipped machines were registered and identified on official paperwork as Dunstall, (perhaps no Commandos at all) most were identified as Nortons and this seems to be the case with your bike also. Dunstall was one of a number of dealers who dealt in Nortons and did their own modifications. Gus Khun is another and you can occasionally find someone selling a Gus Kuhn Norton, but they also are always registered as Nortons.

Shamrock · May 19, 2015

wot said:
I had two Dunstalls, a 1968 and a 1971 810 Sleeper. I was the second owner of each, and got the original titles and ordering and purchase paperwork when with the bikes. Both were imported into the U.S. by the original owners, bought from Paul Dunstall. Each title was for a Norton motorcycle – no mention of Dunstall. The ’68 had Dunstall stickers on the gas tank and the ’71 had ‘Dunstall 810’ stickers on the side covers, but there were no Dunstall ID plates or tags. The frames were stamped same as a production Norton, the ’68 was serial number 127900, engine number 20M3127900 and the ’71 was serial number 147980, engine number 20M3S147890. The ’68 had the points behind the cylinders – not cam driven, and it also had the early non-reinforced frame. These were both complete original Dunstall bikes as built by Dunstall. Sold them several years ago.

Hi Wot, Could you tell me more about Dunstall 127900?

jimbo · May 19, 2015

Shamrock said:
wot said:

I had two Dunstalls, a 1968 and a 1971 810 Sleeper. I was the second owner of each, and got the original titles and ordering and purchase paperwork when with the bikes. Both were imported into the U.S. by the original owners, bought from Paul Dunstall. Each title was for a Norton motorcycle – no mention of Dunstall. The ’68 had Dunstall stickers on the gas tank and the ’71 had ‘Dunstall 810’ stickers on the side covers, but there were no Dunstall ID plates or tags. The frames were stamped same as a production Norton, the ’68 was serial number 127900, engine number 20M3127900 and the ’71 was serial number 147980, engine number 20M3S147890. The ’68 had the points behind the cylinders – not cam driven, and it also had the early non-reinforced frame. These were both complete original Dunstall bikes as built by Dunstall. Sold them several years ago.

Click to expand...

Hi Wot, Could you tell me more about Dunstall 127900?

Looks like we are in a class of three!

Shamrock · May 19, 2015

jimbo said:
Shamrock said:

wot said:

I had two Dunstalls, a 1968 and a 1971 810 Sleeper. I was the second owner of each, and got the original titles and ordering and purchase paperwork when with the bikes. Both were imported into the U.S. by the original owners, bought from Paul Dunstall. Each title was for a Norton motorcycle – no mention of Dunstall. The ’68 had Dunstall stickers on the gas tank and the ’71 had ‘Dunstall 810’ stickers on the side covers, but there were no Dunstall ID plates or tags. The frames were stamped same as a production Norton, the ’68 was serial number 127900, engine number 20M3127900 and the ’71 was serial number 147980, engine number 20M3S147890. The ’68 had the points behind the cylinders – not cam driven, and it also had the early non-reinforced frame. These were both complete original Dunstall bikes as built by Dunstall. Sold them several years ago.

Click to expand...

Hi Wot, Could you tell me more about Dunstall 127900?

Click to expand...

Looks like we are in a class of three!

indeed

lcrken · May 19, 2015

A little clarification of my earlier post. Dynodave pointed out to me that the Dunstall literature for the 850 bikes only called out 10:1 compression ratio, not 10:1 pistons, as I wrote. I've edited the post to correct that.

I've never seen any reference to Dunstall 850 pistons, so can't say how he got the higher CR for the 850. As Dave pointed out, it likely was achieved by cutting the head, which is how the factory service notes recommended doing it. Not saying Dunstall didn't make 850 pistons, just that I've never heard of them. I've seen his 750 race pistons and 810 kit pistons, but no 850 pistons. Maybe someone here on the list can add more info on the subject.

Ken

jimbo · May 19, 2015

lcrken said:
A little clarification of my earlier post. Dynodave pointed out to me that the Dunstall literature for the 850 bikes only called out 10:1 compression ratio, not 10:1 pistons, as I wrote. I've edited the post to correct that.

I've never seen any reference to Dunstall 850 pistons, so can't say how he got the higher CR for the 850. As Dave pointed out, it likely was achieved by cutting the head, which is how the factory service notes recommended doing it. Not saying Dunstall didn't make 850 pistons, just that I've never heard of them. I've seen his 750 race pistons and 810 kit pistons, but no 850 pistons. Maybe someone here on the list can add more info on the subject.

Ken

Hi, I had a 850 Dunstall for over 30 years and it was the hardest running Norton I ever rode. Never had the engine apart but I think there was some thing special in there!