Dangerous opinon vs tested facts quik as can be

I am not misleading anyone and risked my life finding out the reality to help others avoid what I ran into time and time again. I flat stat anyone who thinks merely aligning a C'do matters much has not really tested this merely easy assembly feature *alone* WITHOUT also new tires, new AMC guts and swing arm stability. It is only the slackness of parts building up positive feedback spring backs that limits C'do handling not major parts and tires perfectly in line, AS THEY simply can not stay in line with the innate weak construction of light frame and rubber mounting.

So I ask as serious as a stroke or heart attack - *Have you or anyone ever tested a perfectly straight indexed true easy assembled iso C'do w/o *ALSO* essentially new tires, new AMC guts and swing arm spindle stabilized? I have and its terrorizing dangerous to come to my firm conclusions. I am not speculating on this and can not offend me calling me names or saying i am stupid fool - as I know who is just speculating w/o proof - so the harsh facts will not be on me exploring the real limits in C'do's or best moderns, i now hold both sorts in disgust of how close they are to out of control for such little extra thrills.

Peel has completely solved all handling issues but for air flow eddies and fuel slosh no one mentions but the GP level bikers drafting and leaning, so feel sorry and scared for those who don't know what they are missing out on or how close to out of control they are getting pressing un-tamed C'do. The solution lies in stifling loose slack and spring backs with a compliant set up that has eluded the elites which found out if they make ends compliant they can't control the forces or too weak it breaks. When Ya work up to speeds-angles the air flow speed and ground effects compression equals or exceeds frame-suspension-traction loads tires can take, get back to pow wow at hobot thrills handling level.

To improve C'do handling:
NUMERO UNO BY FAR >>> is new tires with proper front-rear pressure differential.
2nd, AMC bushes to stifle clutch wobble which allows primary chain flop then drive chain flop to tug on power unit's iso's/swing arm spring backs.
3rd is swing arm spindle stability.
4th is streamlining air flow eddies.
5th is taming isolastic-steel tube spring backs via swash plates, extra isolastics or helms joint links with long enough radius not to bind at extremes of distortions from power and suspension road loads during the Innate Universal Crabbing angles conflicts of ordinary counter steering.

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How many of you spending and building a decade to have a shoot out with the most elite riders and cycles a big magazine can muster against a crooked ole isolastic rubber baby buggy? So yes everyone else is mis guided on what really matters in life and death handling matters so only thing can brag about is mere tiny incremental improvements by following the masses over the edge...

I just drive slow. Worked so far.

Ugh, only absolute incontestable incontrovertible logic that can ever apply - is if ya ride ya can get hurt no matter how careful on best motorcycle. By the time I got factory Combat Trixie I'd already maxed out on Peel testing before and after tri-links so always think i'm going too slow for conditions on un-tammed Trixie and still get caught out with surprise wobble/weave onset when conditions of road lumps and wind gusts combining out the blue, but as no-name-pre-Peel Combat taught me > how freaking dangerous un-tammed C'dos or even modern too rigid cycles are, I am awlays going slow enough [as wisely advised] to recover with some deepened depression not to expect even very legal seeming safe speeds or leans as much protection. My Joy I want to share is how Flabbergasting Fabulous it is to have a cycle that you simply can not upset in unexpected conditions even flying into them over doing traction limits trying to find something to watch out but never could. so lightening up and powering up to see if i ever can upset Peel. If ya really press cycles to limits one tire or the other or both will loose traction or leave surface. I practice to this level on all my cycles to point I don't want too nor care to anymore but on Ms Peel. Take if as bluff and ego or down to Earth testimony its rather easy to accquire by anyone. There is a safety factor too with the tri-links that have saved me/Peel dodging stuff dropped by nature or thrown off trucks over or around a blind. Like on tire edges blasting into a 35 mph sweeper over 80 mph to see a 4x4" plywood sheet in lane with oncomming in far lane so nothing for it but sharpen up dramatically near paint line for spike of loads Peel hooked up w/o reaction but my sphincters loosing control. Ride Safe is oxymoronic reflecting on the lost souls behaving perfectly.

Just riding sanely is a good test, Steve....

I see the handbag owners thread has been put on hold for a bit:lol:

There is nothing wrong with the Commando frame or isolastics.
Obviously given the age of the bike various parts need to be replaced so things still work well together.
Plenty of people proved the bike performed well and am willing to bet it was due to being smooth but firm in riding style while being precise.
That applied to many bikes of the era,hardly a revelation.

If you want to debate something,ask why the lower loop tubes have near to no cross bracing except for one compression point up high (rear isolastic mount)
Almost a stressed member frame without the engine case actually being involved,only the isolastic inner sleeves and fastener system for compression of the lugs for some form of rigidity in that plane. (triangulation)

Best to just ride them after some fettling in the shed.
Fast but smooth or slower and wave to the cows.

To clarify I repeat no matter how fine a Cdo can be made to assemble easy - that's about all ya can expect for the efforts, not some miracle transformation in handling. Get off this ride safe sane BS rhetoric , if you ride you can be presented with extreme handling tests - which is how i got so insane - surprise events not my fault in many combos beyond my imagination until they happened then nothing to loose going bezerk. I have crashed twice in my life doing racer games, once on 7th day of first Combat '99 >folding tire up on drag strip launch and 2nd event '01 at 120 mph waiting and waiting bolt up covering brakes in a straight > for Jason, Code's chief instructor - to catch up after trying to show me why i didn't know where or how best to apex, so let him whiz past I put my attention on him instead of bike and popped surprise wheelie that bounced down and then way up off my head/neck. I have yet to crash going too fast turning. i have lost count of the crashes going slow playing peg scapping games or pulling stoppies on turned forks d/t car or truck popping around a blind on steep slope. I have kept count of big animal take downs 6 so far. I lost count of times crashed going safe commute speeds straight ahead upright 30-40 or less d/t series of holes or fist size rocks popping up or mud patches or pop out of gear loss of lean drag @ 12 mph the fractured L5 so 9 months bent recovery before normal posture again. I don't count the pasture grass and snow angels take downs as crashing just decreasing radii practice gone too well screwing down tighter on less and less traction. I do count raw Mt woods hidden stumps and logs and rocks and holes and high centering takes downs as unplanned crashes though. Point being if you ride you can get hurt and my crash events have nothing to do with bad cycle handling or risking limits in anyway on pavement.

Take me as a buffoon or pointing ways to better Commando highs. Your call. I ain't putting down anyone not claiming to spank sports bikes in their element, just shaking my head on why not if so much money and effort put into power plants and other things. There is pure magic lurking innately in isolastics and so easy to get w/o bothering about nth degree of mere alignment for assembly ease.

I find that the Commando handles no worse, and actually better, than my 84 BMW and MANY other old bikes I have ridden. They are older technology and you have to take them for what they are. If you are looking for modern Moto GP handling in an old bike then these are probably not the bikes for you.

Are they dangerous ? No more than any other motorcycle when ridden withing their limits.

Unless I have misunderstood your posts

[rant/]

Marc

hobot said:

To clarify I repeat no matter how fine a Cdo can be made to assemble easy - that's about all ya can expect for the efforts, not some miracle transformation in handling.

Take me as a buffoon or pointing ways to better Commando highs. Your call. I ain't putting down anyone not claiming to spank sports bikes in their element, just shaking my head on why not if so much money and effort put into power plants and other things. There is pure magic lurking innately in isolastics and so easy to get w/o bothering about nth degree of mere alignment for assembly ease.

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Hobot,

I respect your opinion and agree that there is no "magic" there that will transform the handling. For it's day and even now the Commando handles pretty well. Whether the value of blueprinting can make a difference, even a small one is up for debate and likely will continue to be. My perspective was if the bike is apart and I could do some things to improve it why not. It certainly won't hurt. I think the results are purely judgemental tho and we probably should not be overstating the benefits or lack there of.

I became interested in the WSC because it makes sense to me. I can't say that doing this work to a Commando will make it better because I have no first hand knowledge or testing but I do plan to determine what I can do an implement it on my bike.

I for one am sorry if I offended anyone.

P.S, I am not a "handbag owner" as someone else said. I ride my bikes and do all my own work.

Now don't mis-con-skew hobotese, I too want the most perfect fit and alignments and stable clearances as anyone and spent alot to make it so on Peel. I'm just saying that if someone notices a definite improvement after some corrective effort then they did a good thing but still only corrected an **error** not really improved on the innate instability of isolastics. Proof of this is only isolastics currently raced with the best have some type of triple stabilizers involved. Its those claiming they have solved THE Hinge and never encounter it after merely making it assemble and line up perfectly and putting on best forks and shocks, are wisely not pressing to find out otherwise. Maybe they got better sense than me on picking where to kick up heels, though I can list half dozen times skipping out Trixie on purpose about 60 and once pressing harsher until it skipped out 80's in pleasant surprise that I could even get that G force on and not suddenly be fighting a crash, so of course there was couple lanes run off clear of traffic just in case. Still my SuVee can run circles around un-tamed Trixie and I have to keep mindful of which one I'm on - but Peel made me view the SuVee as even more dangerous than a Commando, which at least gives some warning on out of control onset but not so on SuVee or other moderns, just like ya see in video whoose pilots that don't crash will tell ya - just gotta grit teeth hang on and hope it makes it through it. I too got used to a certain amount of out of control states I knew would self recover - most the time - so ran into needing a sideways suspension so sought out by elite engineers. Even that didn't put me off going harsher [on modern] as still wasn't as risky loose as THE Gravel with spirit, till flight time only way to get frame settled to put any power down to run smack into the fully unpredicable splashing clashing of tires frame CoG and wind pockets as more fear than fun.

One thing that always stands out riding Peel fast was how refreshed and relaxed I was vs how worked out nervous on other cycles not going as fun around, wisely so. I try to stay scared of everything but Peel removed that survival instinct with ability to out race crashes if that makes any sense.

hobot said:

To clarify I repeat no matter how fine a Cdo can be made to assemble easy - that's about all ya can expect for the efforts, not some miracle transformation in handling............Take me as a buffoon or pointing ways to better Commando highs. Your call. I ain't putting down anyone not claiming to spank sports bikes in their element, just shaking my head on why not if so much money and effort put into power plants and other things. There is pure magic lurking innately in isolastics and so easy to get w/o bothering about nth degree of mere alignment for assembly ease.

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As I mentioned to Concours in the previous thread, you've come to the above conclusion as a result of road testing a blueprinted frame/chassis assembly? Yes or no will suffice.

Best aligned Commando in the world Versus UK roads = roads win.

Best aligned Commando in the world Versus UK roads = roads win.

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Agree totally but the economy is on the way up so maybe the councils will be spending on road repairs in 2014! :roll: Unlikely given the new local govt cuts coming. I'd say our roads are now generally worse than what I ever saw in the Northern US and Canada where the concrete freeways were diabolical.

Madnorton said:

Best aligned Commando in the world Versus UK roads = roads win.

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You're speaking from experience also? Tell you what, anyone in the UK fancies meeting halfway for a ride out, feel free to contact me. Bring your Commando, or any bike for that matter, any roads of your choice. If you've got a bike camera to film the evidence even better, .

Disagree, MadNorton. I took mine on a trip round the twisties of mid-Wales. It went round corners like it was on rails, and kept up with modern bikes (Ducati, Triumph Sprint, BMW) being ridden reasonably briskly. It's a 1973 850 Interstate, has had the swingarm mods and Hagon shocks. No complaints at all from me about the handling.

I suggest that most commandos these days are fitted with modern tyres which are much more forgiving than those of the 60s. My riding technique was developed using rock hard tyres which had very little grip. Any sideways movement or twist in the swing arm would start to destroy confidence . If the rear contact patch moved at all you were usually on the deck immediately. - you had to be super-smooth. I think that is the reason I'm so critical of the commando design. If I'd ever ridden one with those old tyres I would have been certain to crash. The Battlaxe tyres I'm using at present are 10 years old, and still feel fantastic to me - depends on how you were dragged up ? I think a commando would have to be set up really badly to grab you by the throat so strongly that you could not recover with good tyres . And that is effectively what was said about the very first commando which had race steering. It chucked a few inexperienced riders up the road after they had ridden over cats' eyes. An experienced rider would have simply ridden through the problem. The geometry on the second model was modified to be more stable. ( I cannot remember where I read this).

Operator Error .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtlS0OHAM0I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvqh-i_D36s

ed.lazda said:

Disagree, MadNorton. I took mine on a trip round the twisties of mid-Wales. It went round corners like it was on rails, and kept up with modern bikes (Ducati, Triumph Sprint, BMW) being ridden reasonably briskly. It's a 1973 850 Interstate, has had the swingarm mods and Hagon shocks. No complaints at all from me about the handling.

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Wales has got some of the best roads in the country. The difference is obvious as soon as you cross over the border. Have you tried Newtown to Builth Wells?

Al-otment said:

hobot said:

To clarify I repeat no matter how fine a Cdo can be made to assemble easy - that's about all ya can expect for the efforts, not some miracle transformation in handling............Take me as a buffoon or pointing ways to better Commando highs. Your call. I ain't putting down anyone not claiming to spank sports bikes in their element, just shaking my head on why not if so much money and effort put into power plants and other things. There is pure magic lurking innately in isolastics and so easy to get w/o bothering about nth degree of mere alignment for assembly ease.

Click to expand...

As I mentioned to Concours in the previous thread, you've come to the above conclusion as a result of road testing a blueprinted frame/chassis assembly? Yes or no will suffice.

Click to expand...

I concede. He's right. ALL the (older) motorcycles I've owned, borrowed, ridden and flogged have had horrid, mass produced frames made of water pipes clamped into a worn out fixture and welded by a hung over sot with a bad attitude. NONE were precision aligned. That said, they all went around corners, sparks flying, without issue.
Al-ot, let's celebrate Christmas Eve... have a pint on me! :wink:

acotrel said:

I suggest that most commandos these days are fitted with modern tyres which are much more forgiving than those of the 60s. My riding technique was developed using rock hard tyres which had very little grip. Any sideways movement or twist in the swing arm would start to destroy confidence . If the rear contact patch moved at all you were usually on the deck immediately. - you had to be super-smooth. I think that is the reason I'm so critical of the commando design. If I'd ever ridden one with those old tyres I would have been certain to crash. The Battlaxe tyres I'm using at present are 10 years old, and still feel fantastic to me - depends on how you were dragged up ? I think a commando would have to be set up really badly to grab you by the throat so strongly that you could not recover with good tyres . And that is effectively what was said about the very first commando which had race steering. It chucked a few inexperienced riders up the road after they had ridden over cats' eyes. An experienced rider would have simply ridden through the problem. The geometry on the second model was modified to be more stable. ( I cannot remember where I read this).

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It's actually the other way around. Sticky tyres will put more force through the chassis therefore highlighting frame deficiencies as in flexing, twisting etc. If the tyres have a lower coefficient of friction then it makes sense there will be less input through the frame before the tyres begin to slide. I'd bin the 10 year old Bridgestones for new ones.

concours said:

Al-otment said:

hobot said:

To clarify I repeat no matter how fine a Cdo can be made to assemble easy - that's about all ya can expect for the efforts, not some miracle transformation in handling............Take me as a buffoon or pointing ways to better Commando highs. Your call. I ain't putting down anyone not claiming to spank sports bikes in their element, just shaking my head on why not if so much money and effort put into power plants and other things. There is pure magic lurking innately in isolastics and so easy to get w/o bothering about nth degree of mere alignment for assembly ease.

Click to expand...

As I mentioned to Concours in the previous thread, you've come to the above conclusion as a result of road testing a blueprinted frame/chassis assembly? Yes or no will suffice.

Click to expand...

I concede. He's right. ALL the (older) motorcycles I've owned, borrowed, ridden and flogged have had horrid, mass produced frames made of water pipes clamped into a worn out fixture and welded by a hung over sot with a bad attitude. NONE were precision aligned. That said, they all went around corners, sparks flying, without issue.
Al-ot, let's celebrate Christmas Eve... have a pint on me! :wink:

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Will do, cheers and happy new year. Shortest day's gone so it's all down hill to Spring/Summer. Were any of those bikes Commando's? I'll PM my bank details so you can supply the beer funds. :wink: