Cycle World Magazine

Write up in Cycle World magazine on the 961 Commando, and a short deal on the Britten.

That is a very conservative dyno indeed. Mine put out 79hp and 64ft/lb with just pipes and 82/66 with a tune and pipes. The stock pipes make no noise and no power. There is no calibration standard for dynos though so each is different!

I never got to test my bike without the decatted SB pipes. The dealer set it up for me. I have nothing to compare it to.

Britfan60 said:

I never got to test my bike without the decatted SB pipes. The dealer set it up for me. I have nothing to compare it to.

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Seat of the pants dyno. :lol:

BPHORSEGUY said:

That is a very conservative dyno indeed. Mine put out 79hp and 64ft/lb with just pipes and 82/66 with a tune and pipes. The stock pipes make no noise and no power. There is no calibration standard for dynos though so each is different!

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Was that flywheel or rear wheel? I believe Norton quotes 80hp at the flywheel so allow anything from 5 to 20% transmission/chain losses and the number is about right. But yes the number is just a number and is only really useful if you're making changes to see if the number goes up or down.

My bike is going on the dyno tomorrow with both the stock pipes and my own custom megaphones. Will be interesting to see what if any change the new pipes make. When you say tune do you mean actual changes to the ECU programming?

Yes I mean remapping and the hp was rear wheel!

So is the ECU accessible without factory/dealer permission? I haven't dug to deep yet, but I see the Omex software is freely available I assume however the factory has their own custom/protected version. Not to impressed with the factory map with regard to holding idle at startup or even when warm.

iwilson said:

So is the ECU accessible without factory/dealer permission? I haven't dug to deep yet, but I see the Omex software is freely available I assume however the factory has their own custom/protected version. Not to impressed with the factory map with regard to holding idle at startup or even when warm.

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Map 077 works great. Some have reported 091 works even better. If you change the coil, wires and plugs you will notice a much better experience overall.

iwilson said:

So is the ECU accessible without factory/dealer permission? I haven't dug to deep yet, but I see the Omex software is freely available I assume however the factory has their own custom/protected version. Not to impressed with the factory map with regard to holding idle at startup or even when warm.

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Which EFI map do you intend to run on the dyno with your custom pipes?
As others have indicated, the stock map is very lean, especially al low RPM, and idle.
With a freely flowing exhaust, the stock map will likely produce a very lean condition that the ECU will not be able to fully compensate for.
I found when I briefly ran my 961 with SBN exhaust on the stock map, there was a fair amount of surging around and above 4300 rpm that concerned me.

If you use the stock map and custom exhaust, keep a careful eye on the AFM level, don't push the RPMs if your operating very lean.

I read the Cycle World review a couple of days ago when the magazine showed up in my mailbox.

It was an interesting review, and in my 10+ years of reading this magazine's reviews of new/newer models, it seems to me it was the most negative review to date.

Yes, there was plenty of positive commentary about the "history" and "legacy" of the brand, but the specific comments on the 961 model were guardedly negative, such as:

"The engine ... is still noisier than an air-cooled desmo Ducati with a dry clutch ... "

"... having the first touch be a hard part like mufflers is not ideal."

"More development certainly would be welcome on this bike."

" We also had a few oil leaks."

"the engine clatter overpowers the quiet exhaust...and whenm revs pass 3,800 rpm or so vibration through the pets and the bars is quite high."

All this , and the same price as the Ducati XDiavel also featured in the same magazine...?

Just saying.... ALthough I love my Mark 3, i have to say, if i was going to drop $20K, i would opt for the XDiavel long before the 961

The engine quiets down over time. Not sure of what they mean about the mufflers, but that sounds quite nit picky. To date, I've never owned an " made in England" vehicle that doesn't leak oil. That doesn't make it right, so point taken. Compare to a Diavel, ever ride one? Sit on one? My God, what a horrid beast. England make the sexiest coolest sounding and fun to drive vehicles. I had a Tr6, MGB, a couple of T140 bikes. Love them all, including the oil leaks. Norton did a great job recreating the old school thump, cafe racer style and riding experience. Despite their problems, the cool and grin factor is awesome. Don't want vibrations, buy a Honda CB1100 and a vanilla cone.

pkeithkelly said:

I read the Cycle World review a couple of days ago when the magazine showed up in my mailbox.

It was an interesting review, and in my 10+ years of reading this magazine's reviews of new/newer models, it seems to me it was the most negative review to date.

Yes, there was plenty of positive commentary about the "history" and "legacy" of the brand, but the specific comments on the 961 model were guardedly negative, such as:

"The engine ... is still noisier than an air-cooled desmo Ducati with a dry clutch ... "

"... having the first touch be a hard part like mufflers is not ideal."

"More development certainly would be welcome on this bike."

" We also had a few oil leaks."

"the engine clatter overpowers the quiet exhaust...and whenm revs pass 3,800 rpm or so vibration through the pets and the bars is quite high."

All this , and the same price as the Ducati XDiavel also featured in the same magazine...?

Just saying.... ALthough I love my Mark 3, i have to say, if i was going to drop $20K, i would opt for the XDiavel long before the 961

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No doubt, the oil is coming from the valve cover breather into the airbox, and out the airbox drain. a known issue the dealers have a fix for.
For sure the 961 experience is a bit different from the typical homogenized, antiseptic, and sterile modern units from Japan, and other companies. My 961 hasn’t leaked a drop in the over two years that I have owned it. The engine does produce more mechanical noise than most when new. It does abate some with time, but this is a characteristic of the aluminum cylinders with pushrods. The stock mufflers are large diameter, and outboard from the twin shocks, so if you are one who is inclined to aggressive cornering, you will touch them down hard because the bike handles great and begs to be flicked about. I will also say there is bit of vibration on my 961 just above 4000 RPM to 4500 RPM. I’m not talking about knuckle busting, tooth loosening, vibes of old BSA/Triumph/Harley variety, but a bit buzzy, not very offensive at all. The price is another matter. If you want to own one of the new Nortons you have to accept the cost as the price of owning a special and exclusive machine. The 961 certainly is not everyone’s cup of tea. Finally, I think the Norton has a beautiful grace to its appearance that is due to its classic Britbike lines. Something no other currently produced machine can quite equal. The new Triumphs are very nice, but the 961 motor is pure classic air-cooled Britbike, heavy on the Norton family resemblance. Cycle World has no test for that.
:lol:

:?

BritTwit said:

Which EFI map do you intend to run on the dyno with your custom pipes?
As others have indicated, the stock map is very lean, especially al low RPM, and idle.
With a freely flowing exhaust, the stock map will likely produce a very lean condition that the ECU will not be able to fully compensate for.
I found when I briefly ran my 961 with SBN exhaust on the stock map, there was a fair amount of surging around and above 4300 rpm that concerned me.

If you use the stock map and custom exhaust, keep a careful eye on the AFM level, don't push the RPMs if your operating very lean.

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The bike runs a Dominator map not the stock map and not the megaphone map the other one... :?

Plugged in on OBDII scan tool last night and it was showing the map was very rich at idle - short term fuel trim was more than 20% (engine was left running long enough to be warmed up). Also noted two stored fault codes P0340 and P0335 crank and camshalf position sensor faults. I'm presuming they're old since the engines running well. Maybe from the first electrical breakdown.

Dyno today...

Sounds good.
I can't wait for you to post the results.
Good luck.

My bike also has not leaked a drop of oil in over 2 years. The mechanical noise can be fixed instantly with a louder pipe if you don't want to wait for it to quiet down after breakin. The stock pipes are ridiculously quiet which exacerbates any mechanical noise. The bike sounds awesome with a set of decent pipes! You will gain more ground clearance also!

The vibration has never bothered me from 20 to 120 mph! If you are coming from an inline 4 it may bother you and if coming from a V-twin you will think its an electric motor!

pkeithkelly said:

I read the Cycle World review a couple of days ago when the magazine showed up in my mailbox.



Just saying.... ALthough I love my Mark 3, i have to say, if i was going to drop $20K, i would opt for the XDiavel long before the 961

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I think its pretty safe to say you're not going to drop 20k on any bike soon!!!

The degree at which modern testers discuss vibration is on a different level entirely to our 'classic' level I feel. From Harley's to modern triumphs to BMWs to Ducatis, I've ridden bikes that, to the testers, 'vibrate' and 'have character' yet to me were very, very, lacking in tactile enjoyment (ie they were sterile).

So I would interpret the testers comments on vibration as the bike having some decent character!

The oil in the airbox issue is becoming a bit of a farce though isn't it? If the fix is already proven, and dealers already know about it, why on earth are bikes being given to the press without it?!? Or to the paying public for that matter !?!

Full write up on the Dominator SS thread. But maybe the Cycleworld dyno is not that far away... With regard to the oil in the airbox I have plenty to say on the other thread. But I also wonder if Norton now have their focus on other projects. It could be that the issue is a fundamental problem that would require a very expensive fix (I hope not). A friend of mine with another Dominator SS has just had the fix and didn't think much of it i.e. more of a bodge than a fix. But I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it and tested it with my own eyes.

[video]https://youtu.be/PPMMCAedXck[/video]



HP vs. Torque curve



HP vs. AFR curve

iwilson said:

... With regard to the oil in the airbox I have plenty to say on the other thread. But I also wonder if Norton now have their focus on other projects. It could be that the issue is a fundamental problem that would require a very expensive fix (I hope not). A friend of mine with another Dominator SS has just had the fix and didn't think much of it i.e. more of a bodge than a fix.

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Did the fix involve a new valve cover with blanked off breather window, and a new manifold connecting the crankcase breather to the airbox. Simon had mentioned this some time ago here on the forum. I believe the idea was to do all venting from the crankcase breather only.

On Kenny Dreer's restorations, he used a cylinder head breather that vented to the oil tank. Worked very well. Seems on the 961, too much oil saturated vapor is passing to the airbox. Perhaps the best way to solve the problem on the 961 is to develop a method to pass fumes to the in-frame oil tank, not directly to the airbox.

Shouldn't be a major effort to do.
We put men on the Moon.
Just saying.