Crankcase torque settings

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To my mind, nylocs will prevent (or reduce the chances of) a nut rotating itself loose through vibration. But they won’t ensure a nut stays tight due to the surfaces being clamped compressing / settling / etc.

Same with Loctite, but that has the added disadvantage of making it hard to check fasteners as the glue can make them feel tight, even when they are not applying the desired clamping force.
 
Once the clamping force is lost ( stretch bolt. poor assembly, dirty mating surfaces, stripped threads etc.) the lock facility with either a nyloc, thread lock, double lock nut will only stop the nut from unwinding & being lost
 
Nylocs can be used twice if you are an airplane guy or so I remember from years ago. Nylocs are nice because they don't damage threads were as steel stop nuts do a little bit. And what about heat damaging the locking ability of the nylon? Loctite works for preventing gauling on SS. But if the nut or bolt is retorqued I think you would lose your locking ability or some of it and would you not get a false reading when using a torque wrench second time?
 
I'd best run for cover because I have never used a torque wrench on a crankcase
Don't think I ever will either
I suppose if all the fasteners are brand new and made to original spec and lubricated properly then maybe you would get accurate results with a torque wrench
Personally I do them up until they feel right and that's it
 
I'd best run for cover because I have never used a torque wrench on a crankcase
Don't think I ever will either
I suppose if all the fasteners are brand new and made to original spec and lubricated properly then maybe you would get accurate results with a torque wrench
Personally I do them up until they feel right and that's it
Same here Baz.

Any space in your fox hole ??
 
Stainless Staytite nuts are the business

But no longer made in Imperial sizes

Tin hat and flak jacket on
 
I'd best run for cover because I have never used a torque wrench on a crankcase
Don't think I ever will either
I suppose if all the fasteners are brand new and made to original spec and lubricated properly then maybe you would get accurate results with a torque wrench
Personally I do them up until they feel right and that's it
I get asked all the time, so I spent time figuring it out and documented it and hopefully some of the gorillas will read and change their ways.
 
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I get asked all the time, so I spent time figuring it out and documented it and hopefully some of the gorillas will read and change their ways.
I ,for one,got good use from your torque chart. It was easy to follow for the head and cylinder base nuts. I am grateful for the time you spent putting it together to help others.
 
I have the OB one printed off and stuck in my shop manual. this will be a good addition. thanks.
 
I get asked all the time, so I spent time figuring it out and documented it and hopefully some of the gorillas will read and change their ways.
Yep I'm not saying it's wrong
Just that I don't do it
I'd hate to think of someone stripping a thread through lack of info
 
Theres an old story that "torque specs" were first published when boffins handed the newly invented "torque wrench" to an experienced Ford auto mechanic and asked him to assemble an engine. He did so 'by feel' as he always did and the boffins noted the reading on the wrench for every fitting, then publishing them as the torque specs for the engine. ;)

Not sure if its true but it's a good story!

FWIW, I've worked on mid-80's Ferrari engines and their factory "torque" specs for cylinder head fittings is not based on torque but on the use of a torque-angle gauge (which Ferrari refers to as a "goniometer"). It displays the number of degrees the bolt/nut has turned after it bottoms. The bolt/nut is torqued to a very low spec - a few pounds to ensure it is seated - and then turned X number of degrees. This method eliminates the concerns about the affect of lubricants, etc and is much more consistent as far as clamping tension. UNLIKE many modern Torque to Yield (TTY) bolts which are tightened the same way, the Ferrari bolts were OK to reuse.

The mid-80s Ferrari 308/328 motors were the first I had seen to use that method though they (and others) may have used it before then. Aircraft probably used it far earlier.
 
Companies like Carrillo also prefer to use torque angle. It’s a good way of being sure about the stretch.

Modern OEMs are far more scientific in arriving at torque settings than your Ford story Mike (although a can easily believe that story is at least partly true). And the science is aimed at understanding the required stretch to achieve the required clamping force. They then work backwards from this to establish the torque required to achieve that stretch.

At an OEM we had to fit ‘trial’ bolts with mirror polished ends and heads, they were mirror polished so they could be measured for stretch in situ by ultra sonic waves. That info was then used to verify / establish the required torque. All very clever stuff.

But, IMHO Norton et al would not have employed anything like that! I assume they would simply have used standard tables based on diameters, materials, thread type, etc. And perhaps some trial and error.

Also, the dry vs lubricated issue is a bit more complex than many might imagine. Basically, unless you scrupulously clean both male and female threads with solvent, most fasteners are likely to have some oil of some kind on them. This also applies to Loctite, in its wet state it acts as a thread lubricant to a degree, not as much as the proper lube, but much more than a dry thread. So, basically, if you really want to be that accurate, you either need to properly dry, or properly lubricate, cos anything else leaves you in a large grey area and quite frankly, your actual applied torque could be miles away from what you set the wrench to.

And talking of the wrench setting… we have the whole topic of accuracy of different torque wrenches, there’s no way a given setting on a £20 Chinese piece of crap is gonna be the same as a £200-£300 Snap On!

Then there’s the topic of calibration. OEMs usually calibrate weekly or monthly usually (although they’re used much more obviously) and they do need surprisingly frequent adjustment to stay accurate.

Honestly, the more you look into this topic the more complicated it gets. But realistically we easily get into the realms that are irrelevant for our antiquated clunkers.

So, far from being a gorilla, it’s this kind of background which makes me rely on ‘feel’ where possible or appropriate, cos to use a torque wrench properly requires quite a bit more than simply yanking on some random wrench till it goes “click”.
 
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But, IMHO Norton et al would not have employed anything like that! I assume they would simply have used standard tables based on diameters, materials, thread type, etc. And perhaps some trial and error.

And talking of the wrench setting… we have the whole topic of accuracy of different torque wrenches, there’s no way a given setting on a £20 Chinese piece of crap is gonna be the same as a £200-£300 Snap On!

So, far from being a gorilla, it’s this kind of background which makes me rely on ‘feel’ where possible or appropriate, cos to use a torque wrench properly requires quite a bit more than simply yanking on some random wrench till it goes “click”.
Old Triumph 500 workshop manuals required that new conrod bolts be used and tightened until a .004"-.005" stretch was measured.

I have two old-school torque wrenches that I check against and that I use for left-hand nuts. Most click-type torque wrenches are way off in the left-hand direction. Also, loosening past the lowest setting or leaving them set to a torque can destroy their accuracy.

I recently took apart a 850 that I used my longest breaker bar extended with a fork tube to get the front axle nut loose. No locktite, not stainless, just tightened by a gorilla. I assume tightened with a powerful impact driver. There were many over-tightened things on that bike.
 
I recently took apart a 850 that I used my longest breaker bar extended with a fork tube to get the front axle nut loose. No locktite, not stainless, just tightened by a gorilla. I assume tightened with a powerful impact driver. There were many over-tightened things on that bike.
Or maybe just tightened by someone who wanted to use a dry torque figure and has a badly calibrated torque wrench….;)
 
"Old Triumph 500 workshop manuals required that new conrod bolts be used and tightened until a .004"-.005" stretch was measured."

I'm trying - unsuccessfully - to figure out how you measure the physical stretch in a bolt as you are tightening it. Where/how did they measure .004-005" as they were tightening those bolts?:oops:

Re wheel/axle bolts - I can recall when the common idea for tightness on these was, "as tight as you can!" :eek:
 
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I'm trying - unsuccessfully - to figure out how you measure the physical stretch in a bolt as you are tightening it. Where/how did they measure .004-005" as they were tightening those bolts?:oops:
I think you just measure it! You need access to the end of the bolt of course (ie not in a blind hole) and tighten, measure / tighten, measure / repeat, until you have the right figure.
 
"Old Triumph 500 workshop manuals required that new conrod bolts be used and tightened until a .004"-.005" stretch was measured."

I'm trying - unsuccessfully - to figure out how you measure the physical stretch in a bolt as you are tightening it. Where/how did they measure .004-005" as they were tightening those bolts?
Crankcase torque settings
 
Re wheel/axle bolts - I can recall when the common idea for tightness on these was, "as tight as you can!" :eek:
I calibrated my elbow for my DRZ a little while back, torque wrench vs factory took kit. Tight as you can is still pretty accurate.
 
"I think you just measure it! You need access to the end of the bolt of course (ie not in a blind hole) and tighten, measure / tighten, measure / repeat, until you have the right figure."

Fast E and LAB: Thanks...

DUH! :rolleyes: I zoned out and ignored the specific application - con rod - as I was pondering it. The con rod, of course has both ends of the bolt visible/capable of being measured.

I hadn't had my coffee yet...that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!;)
 
After years of doing this stuff ..tighten up by feel .. always using anti-sieze or a copper based lubricant. Never go as far as potential stripping of the threads. Check tightness later of course.
 
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