Complete rebuild... oil making it's way to primary?

Ashley if you found basket wobble with belt and have not gone through tranny you still have same of more wobble but chains tensions and mass covering it up until runing but chains are fogiving and I'm sticking to chain gang in my Trixie to suck out more mileage before diving into AMC box again. Which I must do again after putting oil jetting missing primary fastener back in > to loose kicker function immediately after. If just a small leak into primary that don't make it drip much heck just run with it and keep a pad under at home and normal eye on oil tank. Something else may go in meantime and can better make use of the down time fixing them both and any other ones found in nick of time.

Hobot, I have put a new clutch centre in the clutch basket and have run the chain with the old cut open inter case so was able to see what the clutch basket was doing for about 200 miles by just lubbing the chain, but now have replaced the case to seal it up now, I have had no wobble in the clutch basket in that time, I rebuilt my gear box 33 years ago and have only gone back in it to replace kick start pawl 4 times in those years, my gear box shifts perfect with no clunking noise at all just a light click, I do a gear box oil change ever year, when my box plays up I will pull it down, but at the moment its working great and has well over 120,000 miles on it with out any problems, maybe I have just been lucky but I have been lucky with my Norton for 37 years of great service.

Ashley

OMG Ashley that's like me fishing up ancient lamp with the wick still smoldering. I must of mis read about some wobble prior with belt and nil afterwards with chain on. You know your AMC tranny. So I am flabbergasted at such mileage with only cyclic minor replacements imilar to me, but I tend to eat up 1st gear bush too soon. Most my disasters were no fault of mine but the total destruction of several drive trains in several ways sure was my stupid fault one biggie was not to run miles and miles playing tag with sport bikes in lower gears, never coming up to 4th to let oil drain to cool the sleeve bushes which turn to ceramic abraiding compound. I dread working on mine as claiming I don't need no stinking manual don't mean even with it I'd remember its errors or follow the right ones or screw up something I didn't even know I could. ugh. I've not had any issues on Trixie'72 primary or AMC for like 4 yrs but a pawl spring and now the original kicker rachet I knew to keep spare but gave to Wes last year and of course forgotaboutit. Now I know how lube system works inside I too may get 100K miles just replacing wear items not repairing replacing permanent ones like shafts and dogs and bores and cogs missing teeth.

hobot absolutely does not believe any wedge surfing amount of oil can get into the spinning sleeve bushes so what little does can only cool below gall melt temps. Only time any oil can get in by drip splash is when unloaded not spinning in top as shaft sits above resting oil level.
ITT is only solution for Peel.

Yes you can always just remove the primary outer cover ,wipe things clean,then observe for leakage source/s. That's what I would do ,simple.

Had a similar problem some time ago. Started the bike with a full sump and must have revved it a bit too high before the pump had done it's job.
The mainseal turned from an inny to an outy and thereafter motor oil poured into the primary at a good clip.
A new seal solved the problem.

Glen

Curious if you fit a crank seal of the type that has a thin rubber coating on the outer . This thin rubber can tear causing possible leakage , the other type is metal outer to the alluminum casing ,less likely a cause to leak. Hylomar helps too. Wet sumping puts pressures there too to bulge weaken seal on cold startup. You have the reed valve I think. :| Just ideas .

Hm, I'm in habit of hoping for enough wet sump to splash cam and puff smoke a few seconds on flooded bores going over 2000 fast as she'll get there till having to back off to ease off to ride normal soon as I can. So maybe besides a front bolt popping out Trixie from this habit it also popped crank seal out - like I read does happen - but i haven't fixed kicker to find out yet. Now I'm forewarned I'd better not put cover on till I see for sure. Only seal I care for has metal surround and backed up with smear of good ole Racers Blue goo too. I think sump magnet pretty good way to collect-monitor ring/bore and cam/liter dust on various practices. Of course when I found oil in primary my first thot was crank seal finally proved my habit was bad so still pensive I stopped short of full exam only fixing the obvious. I will pull tranny to check effects of my shifting habits so will expose crank seal with enough oil in sump to weep out during gearbox kicker mystery as not like past times ratchet rounded off nor inside cog ramps either. Even if crank seal check ok i'm pulling it to open cases and reseal from ring wear out event.

but am now seasoned hand no need of a manual or any more advice on anything

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Now even after all these years I don't always understand the Hobster's comments but I read those as 'tongue in cheek'.
That seal doesn't even have to turn inside out or distort much to leak badly. A tiny imperfection on the crank surface, an overpressurised bottom end and too many revs while scavenging will do the job and the seal will look fine leaving a scratch your head moment or two. I have a belt drive and it weeps a bit if I don't hold the revs down after a 2-3 week sumping.
What I have never figured out is why with all that pressure in the bottom and what looks like an easy route out via the timing case holes and breather (850), does it prefer to take the difficult route? BTW I just filled those primary holes from the case inside and shortened the screws so I don't have to frig around sealing the threads every time. Studs are a great idea.

Keith1069 said:

but am now seasoned hand no need of a manual or any more advice on anything

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Now even after all these years I don't always understand the Hobster's comments but I read those as 'tongue in cheek'.
That seal doesn't even have to turn inside out or distort much to leak badly. A tiny imperfection on the crank surface, an overpressurised bottom end and too many revs while scavenging will do the job and the seal will look fine leaving a scratch your head moment or two. I have a belt drive and it weeps a bit if I don't hold the revs down after a 2-3 week sumping.
What I have never figured out is why with all that pressure in the bottom and what looks like an easy route out via the timing case holes and breather (850), does it prefer to take the difficult route? BTW I just filled those primary holes from the case inside and shortened the screws so I don't have to frig around sealing the threads every time. Studs are a great idea.

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Search "crankcase breather" and settle in for the long read. The VOLUME of air displaced as the pistons fall is way more than the OEM vents can handle.

Thanks Guys.

I checked my Primary bolts and they were fine. I used permatex on them when I put it back together. The only place it could have come from was the crank case seal. My bike wet sumps pretty badly. After a short ride and 24 hour rest, it will have 12 to 18 ounces of oil in the crank case. SInce it's a combat with 10:1 it is now really hard to kick over with that oil in there when cold. I'm going to fit a ball valve inline to prevent the wet sumping. I will put a long handle on it so that it sticks out and blocked the kickstart so that I don't forget to turn the oil back on!!

FWIW, When I resurfaced the oil pump on my 850 a few years ago, wet sumping dropped from close to what you are measuring to about 1 oz in 24 hours.

If one oz is around what a new pump would do back when Nortons were made, then it would tend to explain why nobody back then ever heard of wet sumping and never had a problem with it (frankly I still don't consider it a problem but we don't need to get into that). When we were younger and owned these bikes, I suspect we all rode them a lot more. I doubt that my '71 ever went more than a few days without being ridden (lived in Memphis, TN during that period) so there would never have been more than a few ounces of additional oil in the sump.

I never heard of wet sumping until joining this forum.

mike996 said:

I never heard of wet sumping until joining this forum.

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Ditto. I never worried about it and didn't have any problems other than I think the sumping makes the bike leak more. When I installed the ball valve, it stopped leaking. But yeah, I ride only a few times a year now.

Johnny, a 1/2" PEX valve will fit nicely in the line and will flow plenty good and it's brass. For $125 I think you can get IronJohns valve/switch and wire it into your ignition and not worry. Or you can easily adapt a $4 10Amp micro switch to the PEX valve, or even home make the switch with the lever and hose clamps. I wouldn't put a valve on it without a safety switch, too much at risk. It's easy enough to hot wire if something fails. I also have some magnetic proximity switches, rare earth magnets and 30A relays, if you want a set or info on the micro switch let me know.

Dave
69S

DogT said:

mike996 said:

I never heard of wet sumping until joining this forum.

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Ditto. I never worried about it and didn't have any problems other than I think the sumping makes the bike leak more. When I installed the ball valve, it stopped leaking. But yeah, I ride only a few times a year now.

Johnny, a 1/2" PEX valve will fit nicely in the line and will flow plenty good and it's brass. For $125 I think you can get IronJohns valve/switch and wire it into your ignition and not worry. Or you can easily adapt a $4 10Amp micro switch to the PEX valve, or even home make the switch with the lever and hose clamps. I wouldn't put a valve on it without a safety switch, too much at risk. It's easy enough to hot wire if something fails. I also have some magnetic proximity switches, rare earth magnets and 30A relays, if you want a set or info on the micro switch let me know.

Dave
69S

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Thanks DogT. I thought the Inner diameter of the feed line was 3/8"?

Johnnymac said:

Thanks DogT. I thought the Inner diameter of the feed line was 3/8"?

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True, but the 1/2" PEX fits in it just fine. I'll check for sure though.



Dave

I rode my Norton 6 days out of 7 and never had any problems with wet sumping in the 37 years of ownership, but this year I brought a new Triumph Thruxton and I haven't rode the Norton as much, then the sump filled up on the Norton sitting for a month without being ridden, I have brough a shut off valve for the line to stop the oil when sitting, I am going to clip a safety cable to it that will go to the throttle grip so I know it will be turned off, I will only be turning it off when it sits more than a week, when riding and stopping for a few days it won't need to be turned off, I don't run a battery on my Norton so a micro switch is out for me.

Ashley

DogT said:

Johnnymac said:

Thanks DogT. I thought the Inner diameter of the feed line was 3/8"?

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True, but the 1/2" PEX fits in it just fine. I'll check for sure though.

Dave

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Thanks DogT. I would certainly be interested in seeing what microswitch you used and any wiring advice.

Yeah, it's a 1/2" PEX or QUEST for sure. Fits in the 3/8 line fine and gives you a full 3/8" open line.



You can get a 10A micro switch from mouser.com V-102-1A4 Omron You'll have to rig it up with a bracket, I made mine out of a small piece of aluminum and used hose clamps to secure it. Wiring is easy, just take the ignition circuit through the normally open contact, and the common back to the ignition you just took off. You can use some push on connectors just like the ignition switch uses so you can put things back just like they were. Or if you like I can send you a prox switch/magnet/relay but I haven't tried it yet myself. It's a bit less rinky-dink, but like I say, untested. But it should look a bit less intrusive. But if you are not closely familiar with the Norton, you can hardly see the PEX valve. You can even put a buzzer in the circuit that will go on with turning on the ignition, if desired. But it won't start unless you open the valve.



Dave

This thread has morphed into a discussion on anti sump valves, so I'll put in my 2 cents worth.

It seems many of you are concerned about hiding the valve, oil path restriction, and of course, forgetting to open the valve.

I've used a 1/4 inch gas cock for most of the past 50 years and 85K miles on my Atlas. It has about the smallest physical size and most of it goes inside the flexible oil lines. The orifice in the valve is 0.200 inch diameter which is nearly as much as the inside diameter of the rigid oil tubes, and larger than the ports in the timing case which are 0.187 dia. I applied permatex to the compression nut threads and slipped the flex oil lines over the thread and secured with a screw clamp....no oil weeping, but those who have machining facilities might turn off the threads leaving a "bulb" at the end like a waterpump fitting. I have not fitted a microswitch to the handle as it has become second nature to me to pull the fuel tap, then turn the oil valve, but it can be done for those who are concerned. The plug extends thru the valve so a switch (perhaps a mercury?) could be fitted (on the spring end in the pic below) and be inboard. The plug is tapered, so it can be lapped in if it should leak. I see no reason why a #1 or 15/64 in. drill could not be run thru the bore to open it up to 0.220 (the ID of the rigid tubes), or even a bit more.

Slick

UPDATE: I bored it out to 0.216 dia. with plenty to spare....but I had to de-burr and lap it in.

Looks like it'd make a good wet sump drain valve too w/o any forgetting to close it issues for very long.