Commando Survey

marshg246

marshg246

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Many of you know that I've been gathering info on Commandos for quite a while and publishing it on my web site, see: https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoSurvey.aspx

I'm trying to figure out several things. In theory, all 850s had a frame number stamped into the timing side of the headstock (not talking about the Red Certification Label). I have enough info now to be somewhat sure the early 850s did not have that number. The first one I have with the frame number is 306124 and the last I have verified to not that the number is 306028. I'm interested in all Commandos but right now I really want more between those two bikes.

Also, starting in May 75, the MK3s had a frame number that matched the rest of the bike. The first I have that matches is 332473 and the last that doesn't is 332351. Any between those two would help as well.

There could be bikes outside the ranges that dispute either of my assumptions. One reason is that it appears that when a bike failed test it could be long time before being fixed and dispatched.

I do not include any info that ties the bike to the owner and I don't even keep a record of the owner.
 
marshg246 said:
Many of you know that I've been gathering info on Commandos for quite a while and publishing it on my web site, see: https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoSurvey.aspx

I'm trying to figure out several things. In theory, all 850s had a frame number stamped into the timing side of the headstock (not talking about the Red Certification Label). I have enough info now to be somewhat sure the early 850s did not have that number. The first one I have with the frame number is 306124 and the last I have verified to not that the number is 306028. I'm interested in all Commandos but right now I really want more between those two bikes.

Also, starting in May 75, the MK3s had a frame number that matched the rest of the bike. The first I have that matches is 332473 and the last that doesn't is 332351. Any between those two would help as well.

There could be bikes outside the ranges that dispute either of my assumptions. One reason is that it appears that when a bike failed test it could be long time before being fixed and dispatched.

I do not include any info that ties the bike to the owner and I don't even keep a record of the owner.
Click to expand...

I fall into this category with a build date of 07.73 and wish I had this statement when I was dealing with NCDMV over my title issue last June. Raleigh was insisting on a frame number which I proved didn't exist with the great agent who came here and agreed with me that it doesn't exist after extensive inspection and pics of my bike.. My previous NY title from way back in the day as I am the original owner always used the matching motor and gearbox numbers. I still haven't received a title yet despite paying for it and an assigned title number on my registration.
 
74 Cafe' said:
I fall into this category with a build date of 07.73 and wish I had this statement when I was dealing with NCDMV over my title issue last June. Raleigh was insisting on a frame number which I proved didn't exist with the great agent who came here and agreed with me that it doesn't exist after extensive inspection and pics of my bike.. My previous NY title from way back in the day as I am the original owner always used the matching motor and gearbox numbers. I still haven't received a title yet despite paying for it and an assigned title number on my registration.
Click to expand...
One value of the Survey and the Commando ID pages is that a couple of times people have needed a letter with references to provide to the State Police checking a bike. Since my business has a good bit of info published the letters I've written were considered as authoritative. I'm getting close to having "proof" of when Norton started having frame numbers on 850s and I'm getting close to knowing when the frame number should match the engine/gearbox/certification label.

Of course, I'm no expert on any of this. People here and books have provided most of the Commando ID info and the survey helps back that up. The struggle is getting the info. Just having the engine number lets me know it exists. Having all the requested info is what really helps. For instance, a bike on the road with a gearbox that doesn't match probably means that the bike the gearbox came from was parted out and no longer exists.
 
Perhaps someone in our community that is also in the government community, especially the motor vehicle - related area, could promulgate an official worldwide release of researched, authoritatively documented "Statement or Record/Fact" regarding these numbers, and local/state/national governments could begin adopting it...

Of course, it would have to have an asterisk or two with a statement to the effect of - "there are gaps at either end of the known/verified serial number range that may fall within OR outside of the actual factory-stamped range"
 
grandpaul said:
Perhaps someone in our community that is also in the government community, especially the motor vehicle - related area, could promulgate an official worldwide release of researched, authoritatively documented "Statement or Record/Fact" regarding these numbers, and local/state/national governments could begin adopting it...

Of course, it would have to have an asterisk or two with a statement to the effect of - "there are gaps at either end of the known/verified serial number range that may fall within OR outside of the actual factory-stamped range"
Click to expand...
Don't quote me on dates - from memory.

The Nation VIN database maintained by a contractor. It was started around 1992, modified in 1996. By law, states had to start using it starting 2010 - most did not. By 2020 all but one were compliant. There is a long thread on it, but this should explain why what you propose won't work. at least in Virginia: https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/new-dmv-nightmare.36048/post-604722

The fact that it took 28 years to fully develop the problem makes it clear that in most of our lifetimes it won't be possible to undo the problem even if we had a president who said to stop the nonsense brought on by the Dept of Justice.
 
marshg246 said:
One value of the Survey and the Commando ID pages is that a couple of times people have needed a letter with references to provide to the State Police checking a bike. Since my business has a good bit of info published the letters I've written were considered as authoritative. I'm getting close to having "proof" of when Norton started having frame numbers on 850s and I'm getting close to knowing when the frame number should match the engine/gearbox/certification label.

Of course, I'm no expert on any of this. People here and books have provided most of the Commando ID info and the survey helps back that up. The struggle is getting the info. Just having the engine number lets me know it exists. Having all the requested info is what really helps. For instance, a bike on the road with a gearbox that doesn't match probably means that the bike the gearbox came from was parted out and no longer exists.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the lack of info on my 7.73 MK 1. Motor and gearbox numbers used for NY title for years: 305970. The agent who came here did ask me if I could provide any written info from people like you Greg and at the time I was new to Norton's after a 43 year absence so I wasn't able to do it.
 
I'm continually amazed....
Hasn't anyone ever seen the Star Wars movie?
"These aren't the droids you're looking for..."

Instead of arm wrestling with the DMV/State Police, just have all the info ready, in advance.
It's not hard kids. (The red stamped plate on the frame)

Or, keep trying to prove them wrong...
 
marshg246 said:
Many of you know that I've been gathering info on Commandos for quite a while and publishing it on my web site, see: https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoSurvey.aspx

I'm trying to figure out several things. In theory, all 850s had a frame number stamped into the timing side of the headstock (not talking about the Red Certification Label). I have enough info now to be somewhat sure the early 850s did not have that number. The first one I have with the frame number is 306124 and the last I have verified to not that the number is 306028. I'm interested in all Commandos but right now I really want more between those two bikes.

Also, starting in May 75, the MK3s had a frame number that matched the rest of the bike. The first I have that matches is 332473 and the last that doesn't is 332351. Any between those two would help as well.

There could be bikes outside the ranges that dispute either of my assumptions. One reason is that it appears that when a bike failed test it could be long time before being fixed and dispatched.

I do not include any info that ties the bike to the owner and I don't even keep a record of the own
Click to expand...

Lineslinger said:
As best I can tell, and I keep finding different indicators that take me a different direction, it is a MKII.View attachment 107136View attachment 107137
Click to expand...
I have the same stamping, I think with slightly further on numbers(?), on my 330109 (engine no.) Mk3 frame. The red plate uses the same number as the engine number. My registration document also uses the same number for frame and engine and ignores the "F1..." number on the frame. 🤔
 
Lineslinger said:
As best I can tell, and I keep finding different indicators that take me a different direction, it is a MKII.View attachment 107136View attachment 107137
Click to expand...
I meant what is the serial number of the bike (on engine, gearbox, and red certification label)? You included the gearbox serial in this reply - do the engine and label match? If so, no doubt it left the factory as a MK2 or MK2A.
 
Mart UK said:
I have the same stamping, I think with slightly further on numbers(?), on my 330109 (engine no.) Mk3 frame. The red plate uses the same number as the engine number. My registration document also uses the same number for frame and engine and ignores the "F1..." number on the frame. 🤔
Click to expand...
MK3 from about mid-May 75 had the frame and serial numbers match. That happened, as best I can tell, between 332351 and 332473. So, if you have a frame number that matches the engine, gearbox and certification label, I REALLY would like to know exactly what each of the four numbers show as well as the date on the certification label. Norton had not started that when your engine was produced except that there is a theory that a Renolds frame (without the "F") would be marked that way - I have never found one!
 
marshg246 said:
I meant what is the serial number of the bike (on engine, gearbox, and red certification label)? You included the gearbox serial in this reply - do the engine and label match? If so, no doubt it left the factory as a MK2 or MK2A.
Click to expand...

The numbers on the gearbox, engine and label all match.

00127 was stamped further down the backbone of frame, matching last three digits of head stamp.

I have no clue as to what the 064140 indicates


.
L1070127.JPG
L1100137.JPG
L1070325.JPG
L1070326.JPG
 
Lineslinger said:
The numbers on the gearbox, engine and label all match.

00127 was stamped further down the backbone of frame, matching last three digits of head stamp.

I have no clue as to what the 064140 indicates


.View attachment 107144View attachment 107145View attachment 107148View attachment 107149
Click to expand...
Thank you - all clear now.

I'm really starting to wonder about the drive side numbers like 00127. My guess is a batch number but so far I haven't seen too alike.

300107 has no number on the timing side and 00100 on the drive side.
304987 has no number on the timing side and 00109 on the drive side.
306028 has no number on the timing side and 00116 on the drive side.
312097 has 850F005218 on the timing side and 00122 on the drive side.
312547 has 850F107291 on the timing side and 00126 on the drive side.
318299 has 850F109123 on the timing side and 00127 on the drive side.
 


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