Commando strengths & weaknesses

As a late comer to the Command party I sometimes struggle to understand a lot of the well known strengths & weaknesses of the Commando, as most people here assume that everyone else has the same level of knowledge & experience that they have. This is thoroughly understandable, & is not a criticism, but it would be useful for those of us not as conversant with the inner workings of a Commando if we could list these strengths & weaknesses. It'd be good to see them all in one place anyway, & I'm sure will spark some interesting debates about what the strengths & weaknesses are, what fixes work & what don't, & what's best left as Norton designed it.
So how about we start with wet sumping? What is it? What causes it? What fixes it? Is it that big a problem anyway, or should it just be accepted as part of the Commando's "charm"? I know I started recent thread on wet sumping, but it didn't really get to the heart of it, & it's a good place to start anyway, as it is a common thing that happens to Commandos.
This could need another thread, as it's a very big topic by itself, but other topics for comparison could be the many differences between the models. It seems to be generally accepted that the Commando continually improved over it's model life, with the Mk III 850 being the pinnacle of the breed. But how much better was the Mk III to a '69 750? What were the year by year improvements? & does that make the early bikes flawed?
I look forward to the debate, & I hope to learn a lot. Thanks in advance for any input.

The MK III the pinnacle of Norton development??? Hardly. Better than a '69 750? You'll get a bit of an argument there.

The MKIII is like a lot of vehicles at the end of the line. Overweight and emasculated.

In standard form, that is.

Nortons (and most motorcycles), like women, are too deep and faceted to ever be truly understood. Just when I got my main squeeze figured out, she went into menopause! I'm getting too old for this crap...
The Norton seems to have its own version of this, but it comes along every time something gets fixed/improved/upgraded. I would say "You're on your own", but that's why this forum is here. Yay!

You want to start with wet sumping? You're either a glutton for punishment or a pot-stirrer. Description/cause: Plain and simple, wet sumping is when the oil stored in the oil tank runs uninhibited through the system to end up in the bottom of the crank case. Since the crank case doesn't have the volume to contain this much oil away from the crank (unlike a wet sump car/import bike/lawn mower), the rods have to thrash around in this pool until the scavenge pump can outstrip the feed pump, and get the sump cleared out. Now, as to what fixes it, you first need to determine if it's a problem. So far, the only purported problems seem to be smoking on startup after sitting for an extended period of time (could it be maybe valve guides causing this?) or blowing out the primary seal. Try this anti-sump-failure-t22340.html to see if it justifies a fix. Mine wet-sumps from the moment it gets shut down, but takes over a month before the inlet screen shows in the tank. That's the only time any action is taken, and it consists of draining the sump, and dumping it back into the tank. The Mk III took care of this with a check valve in the outlet of the oil pump. It can be added to earlier models, if it's that big of a concern.

Weaknesses - I'll list the three that quickly come to mind:
1) Electrics (brought about by corrosion and vibration)
2) Amal carbys (poor metallurgy leading to chunks/slop/bad idle)
3) Isolastics (only when sloppy)

Strengths
1) Handling
2) Relative smoothness (see #3 above)
3) Torque
4) Sound
5) Style
6) Uniqueness (at least, around Norton-dry Idaho)

Most shortcomings can be overcome with only a modicum of skill and the knowledge garnered from these hallowed pages. I would suggest doing a Google search for the specific topic, then using it to drive back into Access Norton. For some reason, I've had better luck finding things that way versus trying to search from the forum itself.

Let the bantering begin!

Nathan

Commandos are what they are. The design is old and effectively you have a choice - you can set the bike up to be ridden hard and vibrate at low speeds. or you can set it up for commuting and have potentially engine damaging vibration at high speeds. I don't believe there is a really safe way to stop wet-sumping unless the oil pump is redesigned to be similar in operation to the Triumph pump with spring-loaded ball valves. You can cut the oil supply to the engine in many ways, however if you get it wrong you would probably get the big bang.

Is the check valve in the Mk111 oil pump reliable ? - Any way it can stick in the closed position ?

acotrel said:

Commandos are what they are. The design is old and effectively you have a choice - you can set the bike up to be ridden hard and vibrate at low speeds. or you can set it up for commuting and have potentially engine damaging vibration at high speeds.

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At the risk of more bickering (!), may we point out to Alan,
who by his own confession has NEVER ridden a bike with isolastics,
that Commandos COME WITH isolastics.
For pretty much most riding, all the vibes are taken away by those little rubber doughnuts.
Try them sometime Alan, you may have enjoyed them....

For me, its that lovely strong torquey motor - get it into top, and just twist the wrist to go,
barely any gearchanges needed. Unless you are in traffic, or seriously twisty twisties.

Vincents used to be advertised as a 20 mph to 120 mph in top gear motorcycle, the biggest and best available.
With the Commando, its almost the same, with a more modern design, (for the late 1960s).
Probably the best motor in british motorcycling, bar none, at a mass production price.
AND available in other than boring black.......

Fullauto said:

The MK III the pinnacle of Norton development??? Hardly. Better than a '69 750? You'll get a bit of an argument there.

The MKIII is like a lot of vehicles at the end of the line. Overweight and emasculated.

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How is it emasculated? I would agree that with the stock whisper quiet mufflers in place, this was the case. Not too many people still run those.
Other than that, performance wise, it's the same engine trans as the earlier 850 bikes except with a ton of upgrades for improved reliability and durability. Most of the items are listed in the thread on MK3 differences and it would be hard to argue that most of these changes were not a step forward. Things like a stronger crank and stronger crankcases, swing arm and so on.
And the overweight refers to the weight of the starter I presume? This can be removed too if you feel that 20 lbs or so will truly hinder performance.

Glen

Wet sumping is more of a feature than a distraction. It keeps the big ends lubed for long periods of time when the bike is not ridden. Seriously, you can read all the wet sump threads, it's been discussed ad nauseam and form your own opinion. Strengths are the looks/style and the torque. The bike can also be rebuilt with modern seals and sealants, proper crank case breathers, EI and made to run reliably. For me it's just a classic looking bike with a bizarre name and a chick magnet. Park one among a group of Harley's and see which one gets the looks. Plus it's hard to start unless you have the technique. No thumb commensurator for me.

Camshaft lubrication at low rpm's is a weakness. Don't let your bike idle for extended periods of time and not at all initially after a rebuild.

How is it emasculated?

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because it is, by a considerable margin, absolutely the slowest Commando of all with a quarter mile of 15 seconds, a good two seconds slower than
the standard 750, Combat, and standard 850 all of which are well documented by many era road tests within tenths of 13 flat

because it is, again, by far the heaviest commando, and not just because of the electric start mechanism

so when one uses the word emasculated a quick trip to the dictionary says it all

emasculated - The Free Dictionary
www.thefreedictionary.com/emasculated
tr.v. e·mas·cu·lat·ed, e·mas·cu·lat·ing, e·mas·cu·lates. 1. To castrate. 2. To deprive of strength or vigor; weaken. adj. (-lĭt). Deprived of virility, strength, or vigor.

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having pointed that out, in many other ways the Mark3 IS arguably the most refined, least vibrating, strongest built of all Commandos

I had a Mark3 and I liked it a lot but there is no question its acceleration is doggish, emasculated

Well maybe you had a bad one or it had a potato up the exhaust.
The slow quarter times are with the stuffed up mufflers in place. They don't mean anything. Put a set of those mufflers on a Combat along with a 22 tooth sprocket and see how sad it becomes.
I had a Vincent that came to me with a stuffed up muffler and a top speed of 85 MPH. World's fastest motorcycle, yeah right!
Put on a free flowing exhaust and suddenly it does 115 MPH.
I have never seen it explained how there is any performance robbing internal part or design in the MK3 engine as compared to any other 850?
Where are they?
Where is this massive weight difference? The official Norton Riders Manual does not agree, nor does my scale.
I sure don't find my MK3 to be doggish in acceleration, even after getting off a 162 HP Sportbike and onto the MK3. It feels damn strong. Certainly stronger than the 650ss, which was said to be 14 second quarter miler.

Glen

DogT said:

For me it's just a classic looking bike with a bizarre name and a chick magnet. Park one among a group of Harley's and see which one gets the looks.

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where do you live? all mine attracts are are old guys that look like me! :mrgreen:

The weak points are it's a typically leaky old British twin with a motor designed in the late Forties, punched out to over 1 1/2 times it's original displacement in a chassis designed in the late 60's solely to compensate for the consequences of making it larger and more powerful than was ever intended.

The strong points were they made a ton of them from 1967 to 1975 (and beyond, making bikes for 3 more years out of bins of parts) and changed them little over the course of 18-21 years, making for huge parts commonality (cheap) and finally, they have a large following of dedicated owners, racers and fabricators who know, like we all do, that a nice clean Commando makes a Triumph or BSA look like a stone-age axe painted black.

And if you strip all the government-mandated crap (turn signals, left-side shift) and the convenient but maddening elecric starter and it's attendant huge battery off a MK III, you get back to what was probably the last, best Commando, the '74 850. I have something similar in the garage, a '71 (one degree steeper rake) with a MK III motor and trans ( relieved of monkey-motion shifter and e-starter) vernier isos, front and rear hydraulic discs with a few other niceties that make it much more practical (and desirable to me) than the 750 that used to reside in that frame. I would wager with a breathed-upon motor, suspension and brake upgrades it would compare favorably to any other leaky old British twin.

Numero Uno was Commandos were the fastest in their time. No2 smoothest that did not beat pilot and parts to death just using it as daily transportation. No3 they have one of the cutest looking engines. No4 they sound good to women and men w/o blocking conversation unless blipped up near red line. No5 they handled as good or better than others in same era. For the common mans do everything well with minimal complexity Brit Iron Peaked with the Combat once production errors solved but that model also dragged down Norton so every later model was down hill in fun and complexity and endurance factors, but damit still a real Commando so no comparison to lessor breeds as far as most joy for the displacement and weight.


Btw there is a mythical but well detailed brand of spoofers motorcycles called the Spragthrope with great range in variety of models and features, every one of them named after some dog kennel breed > I swear after reading and laughing at the scope of their extensive thought out spoofs I have come to believe its name and character are modeled directly after the MKII and it most distinct feature posted here again and again and again... always just a bit ahead of its time.

Heres a rare view of their scooter with features Norton never admited to adopting letting public find out later.


Vincent took a number of style and construction features from this model one of the BullDog lines.


I know I know who ever takes hobot at his word so just review this joyful new owner review and see if the shoe fits Mk3s
http://www.buchanan1.net/my_spag.shtml

I second that re; A. not shaking parts off up and down the road and B. sound. My Junior-High girlfriend (a retired teacher at 63, a year younger than myself) was recently heard to say, "Nothing sounds as good as a Norton." She still remembers....

Hi Old Scratcher.
Norton Commandos only have strengths, oh, and opportunites to improve!
Lots of materials, methods, etc have been researched and developed in 40+ years.
It seems a pity not to incorporate them where practicable.
My bike retains the outward appearance of 'historic' but with discreet durability enhancements.
Ta.

It really is all down to personal opinion, ability and what you want out of a bike.
owned one in the 70's and 80's, wouldn't have had anything else, in the early 80's made it into one of the fastest, most reliable and best handling road bikes. My opinion of course.
This was done by a full engine and gearbox rebuild by the late Fred Barlow. This had all available mods to combat spec although it was 850 cc.
I then rebuilt everything else properly, including all stainless, vernier isolation and norvil disc.

Last year at the age of 57 bought an 850 my. Basically standard but with an obviously good engine rebuild but a single carb.
I am just enjoying it whilst I try and decide what to do with it.
I do not do the mileage I did back then though.

All faults well documented, and more importantly most of them are easily rectified, use the forum to help, it covers all of them.
The Commando is a fine motorcycle but like any if abused and not look after can be a real dog, as can any!

Use and enjoy, decide what you want and can afford. It's all possible.

tomspro said:

DogT said:

For me it's just a classic looking bike with a bizarre name and a chick magnet. Park one among a group of Harley's and see which one gets the looks.

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where do you live? all mine attracts are are old guys that look like me! :mrgreen:

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sounds like dude is a youngun, entirely diff world that they have and live in

aaah ..chicks indeed

Shoot when I was a Texan they told me not to ever mention where I hung my hat because if someone was form somewhere else it was impolite to embarrass them same with all Commandos, especially the long suffering MK3 limousine owners when fully fettered even I swoon over their refinement and thumb commensor. So there are Commandos that can scare the crap out of you and impress strangers racing around yet sound like gentle heavenly pitter pats turbofan powered flying magic carpet to men and women of all era and character. One of my fondest memories after 5 days of crashing once or twice getting to tarmac - was finally making it to hwy to join invited over night ride with locals mostly on HD - when I pulled up they said they knew it was me a couple miles away as Nothing sounds like the Norton. They then introduced me to their fastest rider on a 71 750 higly modified by likes of TC and Texas Big D and Campbell/Drag bike shop with two peahooters they knew to their bones. I was pissing in my pants to hang with these guys through the famous hwy23-Pig Trail and then brave enough to shoot over 100 mph in opposite lane with the more outlaws ridding abreast across whole hwy and them nodding at Norton adding its resonating high throttle song.

YIKES flash back to morning of 7th day waking to early bird drag strip launches. I had no intension to race but excited to test launches on rural hwy learning how to control Combat leap ups and shift points *** then a rusted out muffler fell off so I removed the other rusted one to try again ***!!! oh MY YES it opened up the sonic and the 2S powerband after 68000 the felf like a 3rd piston kicking in : ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) So barrowed a helmet put on my jacket and got in line. No one was wearing gloves or leg leathers in summer humidity.
They had wet tire heating area so gritted teeth locked brake straddling bike ran up to 5500 dropped clutch and nailed WOT, HOT Dang like in the movies. Got to X-Mass tree against some buzz saw modern and could hear the announcer saying listen to the Norton SortonING then crowd overwhelmed everything but the flames out open headers... And that was the being of too much more excitement to convey.

THE EVOLUTION OF THE MOTORCYCLE

by Geoff Seddon

("The Evolution of the Motorcycle" is reproduced from Ozbike Thunder Down Under, an Australian lifestyle magazine.)

On the first day, God created the Heavens, the Earth, and the Wisemans Ferry Road. But He wasn't too happy, His Kingswood (automobile) would sway on the corners, crawl up the hills, and use heaps of juice.

On the second day, God took a new tack, and created the step through. He enjoyed the wind in His hair (He hadn't created helmets then), it was fun, and used bugger-all petrol, but it still crawled up the hills.

On the third day, God created the Honda Four, and it flew up the hills. With four into ones, it sounded better, it never broke down, but the corners remained a problem. Yet He had tasted power, and craved for more.

Thus, on the fourth day, He added two more cylinders to His Honda, and created adrenaline. His insurance premiums doubled, and it cost a fortune to get the tappets done. He also created fear (His hair turned white), and the cliché "enough is enough".

On the fifth day, God blew a couple of joints, had rap with Willie G., and created the Harley Davidson. He would cruise up and down the hills in top gear, and pick up heaps of babes. He would get off on the note. But the Hog was too heavy, broke down a lot and handled like the Kingswood.

Then, on the sixth day, He made the Bonneville. He would still pick up babes outside Wisemans Pub, and it sounded good. His bike was light, and for the first time, the corners were fun. It handled! God was stoked. But the vibration gave Him a pain in the arse, His kidneys were history, it was a touch gutless and He ran out of juice every 100 miles. He wasn't happy, but shit, He was
So finally, on the seventh day, God produced a motorcycle with the speed of a Honda, the torque of a Harley and the handling of a Triumph. He could afford the petrol, tune it Himself, pick up chicks and still blow off Ducatis through the corners. He called His bike Norton [Commando], and He was happy.