Coils have a shelf life? / Ignition Curves

There are a couple of PVL 6v coils gathering dust someplace in my garage. They've been there for around 15 years, are they still good? I don't suppose they degrade the way capacitors do?

I'm thinking about getting a TriSpark. The bike has a Boyer Micro Power. I'm thinking about swapping out the Boyer because when accelerating slowly from 1000 up to 1750rpm, with fixed moderate throttle opening, the engine picks up considerably and smooths out during the stretch between 1500 and 1750rpm. Maybe it's the ignition curve? It reminds me of the way it ran with points installed. Speaking of reliability, I can leave the black box and CDI coil where they are and just pack the rotor/stator with the timing laid out just in case it gets to hot for the TS. The graph for the MicroPower is based on numbers taken at the 'distributor' points.

The coils should be O.K. after 15 yrs.on the shelf. I'm amazed at how different the advance curves are from each different system. :shock:

The old coils are pretty bullet proof unless you crush them. However, it has been suggested to me more than once that running them with a Tri-Spark is probably not a good idea despite the resistance being high enough when measured. I have been leaning toward trying the Pazon Altair. I loved the way my bike ran on the Tri-Spark. It even hid some carb issues. Cracking the throttle with the Tri-Spark was like taking shots of tequila. My Pazon Sure Fire gets the job done but it is more like drinking beer. It is shocking to me how cold blooded my bike is with the Sure-Fire. It starts first kick, but keeping it going takes about three miles of riding, once warm it does fine. I can't be sure that this isn't also carb related but that is the current status.

I assume the curve shown in the graph is for the Sure Fire. Idle stablization has been added to the Altair unit. I wonder what the rest of the curve for it looks like.

Russ

Russ, Did you have a problem with the TriSpark? One of the reasons I considered it over the others was the fact that you were happy with it.

I'm real happy with the Pazon Altair. It has idle compensation like the Trispark and the electronics box is remotely situated so no heat issues. Have not heard a bad report on them yet.

Bob,
I finally came clean in the current thread: calling-all-trispark-users-t16841.html

I went to the Pazon Sure-Fire late last riding season due to the second failure of my Tri-Spark. I would have gladly put another one in and kept riding and grinning except for the fact that Matt (CNW) asked me to accept my money and go away. Very politely, but he did not want to provide me with another unit as long as I kept the rest of my system stock. I am disinclined to start upgrading my 750 until I finally get my 850 project off the bench. Yeah, I know it is turning into the longest rebuild in history, but I have had some good reasons it got pushed to a back burner. Anyway, since I didn't want to get started upgrading the system, Matt recommended I try the Pazon. I rode the bike to work today and it is running pretty darn good, but to be honest the Tri-Spark made the bike feel invincible (thus the tequila comment). I notice it most on launch and when it is cold. Otherwise the Sure-Fire seems to be a decent way to go. But the new Altair has the idle stablization and so I am thinking about trying it on the project bike which I promise will be done by next spring!

Russ

What is it about the stock coils that is somewhat incompatible with the Tri-Spark?

xbacksideslider said:

What is it about the stock coils that is somewhat incompatible with the Tri-Spark?

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Very good question, and one which I cannot answer. Matt did not point to the coils. His reluctance was that the bike had a history of destroying Tri-Sparks and no faults could be found by its ignorant owner. The coils were called into question by other learned people I discussed this with. I kind of keep hoping that some of those same learned people will see these Tri-Spark threads and chip in their opinions but they are staying quiet. I suspect they are rallying or riding. Or maybe they just want to fly below the radar on this one!

Russ

rvich said:

xbacksideslider said:

What is it about the stock coils that is somewhat incompatible with the Tri-Spark?

Click to expand...

Very good question, and one which I cannot answer. Matt did not point to the coils. His reluctance was that the bike had a history of destroying Tri-Sparks and no faults could be found by its ignorant owner. The coils were called into question by other learned people I discussed this with. I kind of keep hoping that some of those same learned people will see these Tri-Spark threads and chip in their opinions but they are staying quiet. I suspect they are rallying or riding. Or maybe they just want to fly below the radar on this one!

Click to expand...

Ask Steve Kelly (Tri-Spark)?

http://www.trispark.com.au/contact/

Yes, coils have a shelf life but you can test them to tell if they are good. Over time and heat the insulation can break down. Here is a link to the test. Also a good reference for other electrical issues on lucas equipped motorcycles.

www.triumphcomehome.com/Coil%20Test.pdf

xbacksideslider said:

What is it about the stock coils that is somewhat incompatible with the Tri-Spark?

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It could be just that most of the stock coils have been squished by the clamps. This brings the grounded-through-the-clamp aluminum coil case closer to the coil windings which makes high voltage breakdown inside the coil more likely. Not a TriSpark issue but if they are troubleshooting a problem remotely I could see wanting to eliminate this possibility.

I have no evidence but I suspect it is a digital vs analog situation. Perhaps the digital ignitions need things to be a bit cleaner. I also suspect that following CNW's lead on how they set up their bikes wouldn't be the worse thing a guy could do to himself. I am very interested to hear from other Tri-Spark fans who have stock electrics and coils in combination with the Tri-Spark ignition. It is very possible I have a ghost in the machine that will eventually destroy my present EI too. If this one fails after a relatively short time I will have no other conclusion to draw.

I hope it is obvious that I am not trying to "flame" CNW or their products. I hope to be a (welcome) customer of theirs for a long time to come. This is just one of those stories that needs to be told. Otherwise I have no idea if it is a singular event.

One thing I can say for certain. My bike ran SO well with the Tri-Spark that I actually thought I was an Amal carb genius! I do OK but genius? Not.

Russ

L.A.B. said:

rvich said:

xbacksideslider said:

What is it about the stock coils that is somewhat incompatible with the Tri-Spark?

Click to expand...

Very good question, and one which I cannot answer. Matt did not point to the coils. His reluctance was that the bike had a history of destroying Tri-Sparks and no faults could be found by its ignorant owner. The coils were called into question by other learned people I discussed this with. I kind of keep hoping that some of those same learned people will see these Tri-Spark threads and chip in their opinions but they are staying quiet. I suspect they are rallying or riding. Or maybe they just want to fly below the radar on this one!

Click to expand...

Ask Steve Kelly (Tri-Spark)?

http://www.trispark.com.au/contact/

Click to expand...

Thanks LAB, good idea, so I did -


Hello John,

I've written the following about our Tri-Spark coils on our Blog.

http://www.trispark.blogspot.com.au/201 ... coils.html

http://www.trispark.blogspot.com.au/201 ... oil-q.html

My concern around using the stock coils would be based on the condition they are in. Are they crushed? Are the terminals damaged? Has the oil leaked out?

If they are in good condition the Lucas 17M6 coils would be OK to use with the Tri-Spark.

Regards,

Stephen Kelly
Northstar Electronics - Tri-Spark Ignition mob 0414 379 674 tel +61 08 8371 1664 fax +61 08 8371 0839
sales@trispark.com.au www.trispark.com.au

rvich said:

I am very interested to hear from other Tri-Spark fans who have stock electrics and coils in combination with the Tri-Spark ignition. It is very possible I have a ghost in the machine that will eventually destroy my present EI too. Russ

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I use stock coils with Trispark. 12v Lucas coils in parallel, copper leads with 5k resistor cap. About 6000 miles like this in 5 years. Perfect idle and a really strong spark. The only EI failure I had was when I pulled a plug lead with the engine running. If you energise the EI and fire a spark with nowhere for it to go (plug), the shock can kill the system. All EI manufacturers flag resistance and having plugs in at all times.

I believe many EI failures are user related.

Yeah, I know. Your ignition fails and you get to wear an idiot hat. Sorta like the Ole and Sven joke..."yust one sheep!"

Russ

Here is the question I have floating around in my head. The original coils were designed to use copper wire HT leads and non-resistor plugs. What happens when you introduce resistor caps and plugs (maybe wires as well) into the system?

My coils are a lot newer than 1972, but that doesn't mean they are manufactured to high standards (despite the fact that they cost a small fortune). They test out fine, but is it possible that when asked to spark through the resistor HT leads that they are leaking enough energy to destroy a digital ignition but still fire the spark plug?

I was sorta hoping somebody else would propose this so that I didn't have to!

Russ

Nortiboy said:

rvich said:

I am very interested to hear from other Tri-Spark fans who have stock electrics and coils in combination with the Tri-Spark ignition. It is very possible I have a ghost in the machine that will eventually destroy my present EI too. Russ

Click to expand...

I use stock coils with Trispark. 12v Lucas coils in parallel, copper leads with 5k resistor cap. About 6000 miles like this in 5 years. Perfect idle and a really strong spark. The only EI failure I had was when I pulled a plug lead with the engine running. If you energise the EI and fire a spark with nowhere for it to go (plug), the shock can kill the system. All EI manufacturers flag resistance and having plugs in at all times.

I believe many EI failures are user related.

Click to expand...

I would be curious as to what the resistance is of your 12V coils. Resistance in a parallel circuit is quite different than resistance in series. My 6V coils have a resistance each of about 2 ohms. So in series it gives me a total of 4 ohms. These same coils in parallel would be a total resistance of 1 ohm, which is well below the prescribed limit for the Tri-Spark to function.

Russ

rvich said:

Nortiboy said:

rvich said:

I am very interested to hear from other Tri-Spark fans who have stock electrics and coils in combination with the Tri-Spark ignition. It is very possible I have a ghost in the machine that will eventually destroy my present EI too. Russ

Click to expand...

I believe many EI failures are user related.

Click to expand...

I would be curious as to what the resistance is of your 12V coils. Resistance in a parallel circuit is quite different than resistance in series. My 6V coils have a resistance each of about 2 ohms. So in series it gives me a total of 4 ohms. These same coils in parallel would be a total resistance of 1 ohm, which is well below the prescribed limit for the Tri-Spark to function.

Russ

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Generally speaking coils can not be wired in parallel. If you do you will usually only get a spark from one coil.

Of course there is an old trick of wiring two coils in parallel and then grounding the secondary of one of them. This was used to make the coil charge faster for increased RPM when using points. The points didn't last very long that way. Jim