Clutch inspection time

Boss302

Boss302

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I've recently been though the timing chest and countershaft sprocket inspection on my 2015 961. Was happy to find no unusual wear on the timing chain or gears or sprocket issues. Now it's time for me to check the clutch side. The clutch seems a bit loud and rough in engagement. I've been following the threads about basket rivet and spring issues. The Richard Coote clutch basket removal tutorial is very helpful but I have a few questions that I'm hoping will assist me in streamlining my effort. If my goal is to inspect the clutch not expecting to find any disk issues with the emphasis being on the basket rivets and springs, what does the extent of my disassembly need to be? The tutorial shows removal of the alternator rotor and crankshaft attached parts along with the balance shaft gear . In order for me to just remove the clutch contents and basket do I really need to do all this? Do I really need to use the gear and clutch jam tools or can improvise? I know many of you have extensive experience with this. I have worked on lots of less complex clutches but never one like this. Any help is appreciated. I'd like to be as prepared as possible before I get started on this. I have a new gasket but expect I may not need it. The bike has about 5000 miles. Many of the usual problems so far.
 
The clutch plates and springs can be removed. But to get off the hub nut you will need to lock the basket. You will not slide off the basket without taking the balance gear off. It pretty much has to go like the video shows. Norton shows using a copper penny to jam the basket. You need lock the hub and basket , there are inexpensive 961 lock tools on eBay made in UK .
 
TonyA said:
The clutch plates and springs can be removed. But to get off the hub nut you will need to lock the basket. You will not slide off the basket without taking the balance gear off. It pretty much has to go like the video shows. Norton shows using a copper penny to jam the basket. You need lock the hub and basket , there are inexpensive 961 lock tools on eBay made in UK .
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What Tony said. To get the basket off everything needs to come out. its a good time to inspect the shift pawl as well. Penny works or order the gear jammer from CNW. And don't unspring the balance gear. Follow the directions VERY CAREFULLY.
 
Boss302 said:
I've recently been though the timing chest and countershaft sprocket inspection on my 2015 961. Was happy to find no unusual wear on the timing chain or gears or sprocket issues. Now it's time for me to check the clutch side. The clutch seems a bit loud and rough in engagement. I've been following the threads about basket rivet and spring issues. The Richard Coote clutch basket removal tutorial is very helpful but I have a few questions that I'm hoping will assist me in streamlining my effort. If my goal is to inspect the clutch not expecting to find any disk issues with the emphasis being on the basket rivets and springs, what does the extent of my disassembly need to be? The tutorial shows removal of the alternator rotor and crankshaft attached parts along with the balance shaft gear . In order for me to just remove the clutch contents and basket do I really need to do all this? Do I really need to use the gear and clutch jam tools or can improvise? I know many of you have extensive experience with this. I have worked on lots of less complex clutches but never one like this. Any help is appreciated. I'd like to be as prepared as possible before I get started on this. I have a new gasket but expect I may not need it. The bike has about 5000 miles. Many of the usual problems so far.
Click to expand...
The big question for me to you is ; Do you still like the 961 ? Is it still special enough for you to keep ? You know my answer !
 
TonyA said:
The clutch plates and springs can be removed. But to get off the hub nut you will need to lock the basket. You will not slide off the basket without taking the balance gear off. It pretty much has to go like the video shows. Norton shows using a copper penny to jam the basket. You need lock the hub and basket , there are inexpensive 961 lock tools on eBay made in UK .
Click to expand...
That's what I thought. Thanks. I guess I could tell the condition of the rivets with the clutch plates out and the basket still in place but the springs on the back of the hub and their recesses are hidden away unless I pull the basket. Just out of curiousity, since I'll likely do the complete disassembly, what can you tell about the condition of the back of the basket while it is in place? Perhaps slop or noise in the baskets movement, or metal chips from wear in the spring seats? Anything else that could hint at a problem lurking behind? In Tucson Az I have no mechanics who would be willing or able to help if I ran into any unexpected problems , so I'd like to not have any.
 
TonyA said:
The big question for me to you is ; Do you still like the 961 ? Is it still special enough for you to keep ? You know my answer !
Click to expand...
I've owned Nortons for 50 years. All 750 or 850 Commandos until in the 1990s I bought 2 old Atlases. Currently I have 2 of the old Commandos and the Atlases along with the 961. I enthusiastically encourage Norton to persist and was pleased to see the new 961 progress. I will support them as long as they continue the vertical twins. I like working on bikes which has always come with owning Nortons. I remember seeing Kenny Dreer at the Del Mar bike weeks when he was modernizing old Commandos. We had a local shop called AMR in Tucson for many years who worked on old Brits but they closed down and never got involved in the new Nortons. It's nostalgia and the feel of the Norton vertical twin acceleration and handling that keep me interested. You are clearly very involved and knowledgeable about Norton. I'm curious about your history with them.
 
Unless the rivets are loose , your not going to see/feel much . But at least you can feel for a loose basket or starter ring gear. If you are inclined to , take it all the way off and then you can at least visually inspect the back end closely. The 5 starter ring gear bolts should be tight and equally deep in their bores . And the 4 cush drive springs should not be loose or rattle in their pockets. If you can find a service , or do it your self have the press fit dowel pins installed on the ring gear while you have it out . I have not done this pinning so mine is still as it left the factory ( 5 loctited shoulder bolts ) . I am at over 19,000 miles not km on mine .
 
Just a reminder bout the Cush drive springs & why they may need looking at ,this was at 16,000 miles ,now on 28,500 , repairs were done at factory in summer of 2019 , I’ll get SB to give it a major overhaul in the winter & check what’s going on under them crankcase covers .
Hope it will all stay in one piece till then , got a charging prob atm , started as I was top of the ramp at euro tunnel Calais, let’s just say bump starting a 961 inside the euro tunnel train is not for the faint heated .
Clutch inspection time
Clutch inspection time
Clutch inspection time
Clutch inspection time
Clutch inspection time
 
What kind of warning did you get that there was something going on with the cush springs? Was there a gradual change in function and noise, or an abrupt failure, or no noticeable changes at all? What did the recess that the spring sits in look like? I've seen the images posted in these clutch related threads where there was significant damage to the basket where the spring sits.
I've decided that if my clutch is holding up well at 5000 miles after the inspection that I am going to avoid driving the bike in such a way that puts significant stress on the clutch. I'll wait until it is engaged and apply power evenly.
Do you suppose that the people who have had the clutch problems are the ones who ride it the hardest? Thanks for you post.
 
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Boss302 said:
What kind of warning did you get that there was something going on with the cush springs? Was there a gradual change in function and noise, or an abrupt failure, of no noticeable changes at all? What did the recess that the spring sits in look like? I've seen the images posted in these clutch related threads where there was significant damage to the basket where the spring sits.
I've decided that if my clutch is holding up well at 5000 miles after the inspection that I am going to avoid driving the bike in such a way that puts significant stress on the clutch. I'll wait until it is engaged and apply power evenly.
Do you suppose that the people who have had the clutch problems are the ones who ride it the hardest? Thanks for you post.
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I don’t ride hard at all , 5000 revs max really, I was changing gear & when tone of the engine changed , sounded like a club hammer inside the engine was bouncing around trying to get out, pulled clutch in & turned off & stopped ,damaged 3rd & 4th gear as well , this failure could be another reason for the delay of the new TVS 961 classics , this clutch spring failure could of locked the engine & thrown me off with a good night Vienna finale.
TVS guys took this very seriously when I explained what occurred , showed them these same pictures.
So I would imagine they would of put stronger springs in the new bikes , having a fatality on there first production bike would of been well , not good all round.
TVS have mentioned they were quality controlling all the inherited stock of parts & materials, that includes clutch springs .
Clutch inspection time
 
BLIGHTYBRIT/SF said:
I don’t ride hard at all , 5000 revs max really, I was changing gear & when tone of the engine changed , sounded like a club hammer inside the engine was bouncing around trying to get out, pulled clutch in & turned off & stopped ,damaged 3rd & 4th gear as well , this failure could be another reason for the delay of the new TVS 961 classics , this clutch spring failure could of locked the engine & thrown me off with a good night Vienna finale.
TVS guys took this very seriously when I explained what occurred , showed them these same pictures.
So I would imagine they would of put stronger springs in the new bikes , having a fatality on there first production bike would of been well , not good all round.
TVS have mentioned they were quality controlling all the inherited stock of parts & materials, that includes clutch springs .
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Just out of interest who did you speak to at TVS was it Chris by any chance?
 
This is why I say they do seem to be taking reliability seriously. They told me they would come and see me any part of the country and treat me to lunch. I pointed out that I could actually see their new factory from the roof of my house in Solihull!
 
Clive said:
This is why I say they do seem to be taking reliability seriously. They told me they would come and see me any part of the country and treat me to lunch. I pointed out that I could actually see their new factory from the roof of my house in Solihull!
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I wonder if they'd come down to Tucson Az near the US Mexico border? I'd even pay for the lunch. Maybe someday in the future if they eventually have any luck with U.S. sales and dealers. Seems like alot of the smaller U.S. dealers who are looking for brands to add to their showroom are picking up Royal Enfield and BSA. Maybe Norton too if TVS can successfully disassociate itself from the nightmare U.S. dealers had with S.G.
 
Boss302 said:
I wonder if they'd come down to Tucson Az near the US Mexico border? I'd even pay for the lunch. Maybe someday in the future if they eventually have any luck with U.S. sales and dealers. Seems like alot of the smaller U.S. dealers who are looking for brands to add to their showroom are picking up Royal Enfield and BSA. Maybe Norton too if TVS can successfully disassociate itself from the nightmare U.S. dealers had with S.G.
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Royal Enfield is a good profitable business at the dealer level. Margins are good and they are not a service nightmare. But they also sold over 4 million motorcycles worldwide last year alone so they can support a dealer network with low startup/investment which is why you have a decent dealer network in the USA. We have at least 12 dealers in California and you even have three or four in AZ as well. They get training and other support that Norton never provided. Why do you think selling dealers won't work on the Nortons they sold? They don'[t have mechanics who will work on them is 95% of the reason.
 
BLIGHTYBRIT/SF said:
I don’t ride hard at all , 5000 revs max really, I was changing gear & when tone of the engine changed , sounded like a club hammer inside the engine was bouncing around trying to get out, pulled clutch in & turned off & stopped ,damaged 3rd & 4th gear as well , this failure could be another reason for the delay of the new TVS 961 classics , this clutch spring failure could of locked the engine & thrown me off with a good night Vienna finale.
TVS guys took this very seriously when I explained what occurred , showed them these same pictures.
So I would imagine they would of put stronger springs in the new bikes , having a fatality on there first production bike would of been well , not good all round.
TVS have mentioned they were quality controlling all the inherited stock of parts & materials, that includes clutch springs .View attachment 96716
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Yikes!. Glad you're okay. I was riding mine on a nice winding road here outside of Tucson called Old Spanish Trail. I went over a cattle guard when something in or about the engine started clanging. It did not affect the engine running so I figured it was something in the cases. Under warranty at that time so back it went to the dealer in Westminster California. They apparently went on quite a search for the problem ( mechanics there with little Norton experience as was typical) . Eventually they found that the stator had come loose and was thrashing around. 6 mos later I got the bike back. It's a 2015. Locktite?
Anyway, thanks for your story. I guess with these SG Nortons you either need to stay one step ahead of the bike with checkups and preventative maintenance, or keep you fingers crossed. You are lucky to live closer to the source where you have some support. I feel very fortunate to have found Richard Coote , and this forum. So much good 1st hand information.
City Garage said:
Royal Enfield is a good profitable business at the dealer level. Margins are good and they are not a service nightmare. But they also sold over 4 million motorcycles worldwide last year alone so they can support a dealer network with low startup/investment which is why you have a decent dealer network in the USA. We have at least 12 dealers in California and you even have three or four in AZ as well. They get training and other support that Norton never provided. Why do you think selling dealers won't work on the Nortons they sold? They don'[t have mechanics who will work on them is 95% of the reason.
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It starts with a reputable product. Without that, nothing else matters. My hope is that TVS has the discipline and expertise to provide that. Then the expansion will occur as the market allows. I'll wait with my eyes open this time and not let enthusiasm for the brand exceed reason.
 
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