Cam and follower tests.

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My recollection is that hydraulics lifters were pretty much universally used in vanilla pudding North American V8s but any high performance V8, such as the 340 Dodge or the KCode Ford 289 got solid lifters.
In the hotrod world one of the common performance mods is to do away with hydraulic lifters and go to a solid lifter setup with an appropriate cam profile.

So I'm not sure we should be trying to fit hydraulic lifters to these old hotrods.

A bit on the modern day fitment of hydraulic vs solid on an old Mopar 440.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0312-solid-vs-hydraulic-lifters/amp/

Glen
 
I think you guys are starting to understand why Dreer gave up on the vintage Nortons and wanted to design something similar but without some of the drawbacks.
 
Well in a reliability contest of the original Commandos vs 961- , the old version with its warts and all, wins handsdown, so far.( Ignoring the Combat fiasco)

Glen

Perhaps but the Norton twin had, what, 20 years of development? By the time it came to the Commando it was pretty sorted.

The 961 had a rough gestation period with limited resources and a regime change in the middle.
 
Well in a reliability contest of the original Commandos vs 961- , the old version with its warts and all, wins handsdown, so far.( Ignoring the Combat fiasco)

I don't follow the 961 forum that much, but enough to see that reliability is a Very Big Issue.
Still, relative to this thread, have the hydraulic lifters been one of the sore spots? And if not, does it (reliable hydraulics in the valve train) give hope for the old bikes?
 
No, I don't recall reading that the hydraulic lifters in the 961 have been a problem...yet.
Very few if any of the bikes have done the mileage that Jim & Fullautos cams wore out at, prematurely.
Most of those 961 s have been sidelined by other issues and this has kept the mileages low, even on older 961s.

So we don't know about their lifter cam setup just yet.

Glen
 
Mine hasn’t been sidelined by any such issues Glen. So much offence has been taken sir!

Indeed, mine suffers from what Fullauto calls ‘poser and fairy’ syndrome.

So far at least, the factory has no fix for this...
 
Poser and Fairy = not a lot of miles covered I presume?

I hope my comments on the 961 in general are accurate, I don't want to in any way exxagerate or state untruths. It's just what I've been reading about the bikes for years and years now, the problems as described by owners.

However, I guess we are moving away from Norton cams, my fault.

Glen
 
Are the Norton 961s OHV engines? I have no idea, never paid any attention
My recollection is that hydraulics lifters were pretty much universally used in vanilla pudding North American V8s but any high performance V8, such as the 340 Dodge or the KCode Ford 289 got solid lifters.
In the hotrod world one of the common performance mods is to do away with hydraulic lifters and go to a solid lifter setup with an appropriate cam profile.

So I'm not sure we should be trying to fit hydraulic lifters to these old hotrods.

A bit on the modern day fitment of hydraulic vs solid on an old Mopar 440.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0312-solid-vs-hydraulic-lifters/amp/

Glen

FWIW...all production V8 Mopars (Chrysler, Plymouth, Dodge) beginning in 1968 had hydraulic liters from the factory. That included all the high performance engines - 340, 440, and 426 Hemi as well as the "standard engines" - 318 and 383. I owned cars with all of those engines from new and worked on them literally all my life. I did tons of work on Ford/Chevy as well but "specialized" in Mopars. I also campaigned Mopars - a 1968 340 Barracuda, a 1971 440 Challenger, and a 1968 Hemi Barracuda in the SuperStock drag racing class. The 68 Hemi Barracuda was a special order, race only vehicle sold specifically as a drag racer. It was not street legal and only around 50 were made. NO, sadly, I didn't own it, just wrenched/drove it. An original will easily fetch a million bucks nowadays! :( Of course,, the old classic car saying could apply, revised for the specific: "Mopar made 50 1968 Race Hemi Barracudas, of which 1412 survive." :) I made up the specific numbers - but cloning them is pretty common.

Higher performance cams, still with hydraulic lifters were sold through Mopar's Direct Connection performance parts program for substantial power gains. The "Purple Shaft" (hydraulic) being one of their most popular cams for higher performance street/strip engines. Of course, more aggressive solid lifter and roller cams were available. The DC program was a parts supplier for Mopar's competition program. None of the parts were available to be ordered on a production car. IOW, you could not go to the dealer and order a 440 Road Runner and specify that you wanted a particular cam from the DC program.

I didn't read the article but if anyone is claiming a post 68 production Mopar V8 came with solid lifters, they are looking at a car that someone has previously changed the lifters and, I would assume, the cam - it would be silly to replace Hyd lifters with solids on the factory cam. All you would get is additional maintenance and lower performance.

Re the 961 Norton. There was a 961 on UK Ebay a couple of weeks ago for a Buy it Now of 10 or 12k pounds (I can't remember which). What struck me was that there were several 70's Commandos listed at higher BIN prices. Whether any of the bikes sold for their BINs, I don't know.
 
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After the roller follower rabbit hole, the 'hydraulic lifter' rabbit hole....including V8 hot rods......soon to be the 961 rabbit hole.....

I say: The apex of conservatism is the refusal of an open-minded discussion. Engineering is science and science is knowledge and free thought, not politics or preservation of artifacts .....

-Knut
 
I say: The apex of conservatism is the refusal of an open-minded discussion. Engineering is science and science is knowledge and free thought, not politics or preservation of artifacts .....

-Knut

Maybe, but I won't be using roller followers or hydraulic ones (and neither will most contributors!) and am really interested to understand more about hardness as it relates to original style Commando cams and followers!

I lost a PW3 and AN followers after a season and have similar running on a hard weld cam and radiused AN followers that I will be getting a look at some time this winter! I may need to prepare for more funding! We will see. I have a vested interest in the base discussion.

You guys want to theorise about alternative follower designs have at it.....on another thread!
 
I say: The apex of conservatism is the refusal of an open-minded discussion. Engineering is science and science is knowledge and free thought, not politics or preservation of artifacts .....

-Knut

BTW, elsewhere I am criticised for being liberal! And when it comes to preservation of artefacts, that is pretty much what running an old motorcycle is, and without an engineering background I would not get far at what I do. The problem with science and free thought is that often, it leads nowhere useful, which is fine, until you need to go somewhere useful and now! Racers have to be pragmatic too or we would never race!
 
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As a member of multiple forums (german car and motorcycle forums mostly), I must say this forum is far and away the best,,,it is the most informative, most entertaining, most lively with the most insightful and passionate posts of any forum,,,I'm glad I'm a member
 
So, 11 pages of solid info and no input from Andover Norton? Gee, lust like all my e-mails to and from Ashley and Joe. If it gets too hard, just don't give an answer, it will all blow over shortly.

So, what are Andover Norton doing about the problem? Still no followers listed for sale on their website.
 
So, 11 pages of solid info and no input from Andover Norton? Gee, lust like all my e-mails to and from Ashley and Joe. If it gets too hard, just don't give an answer, it will all blow over shortly.

So, what are Andover Norton doing about the problem? Still no followers listed for sale on their website.

From what I know of Joe and the team they will be testing stock and confirming quality and compatibility of the AN supplied followers, with the AN supplied cams and valve train components.

If there are issues these will have to be resolved between AN and their suppliers , revised product/ production methods agreed, quality checks and procedures put in place.

The most sensible action while this work is being carried out is to stop selling the parts in question.

Maybe the answer is to sell cam and followers as a kit with a suitable lubricant for first start like many other manufactures do.

Out side of this those who decide to mix and match, pay your money, and take your chance on compatibility and longevity.

Regards

Esme
 
From what I know of Joe and the team they will be testing stock and confirming quality and compatibility of the AN supplied followers, with the AN supplied cams and valve train components.

If there are issues these will have to be resolved between AN and their suppliers , revised product/ production methods agreed, quality checks and procedures put in place.

The most sensible action while this work is being carried out is to stop selling the parts in question.

Maybe the answer is to sell cam and followers as a kit with a suitable lubricant for first start like many other manufactures do.

Out side of this those who decide to mix and match, pay your money, and take your chance on compatibility and longevity.

Regards

Esme

Seriously? Have you read the other thread on this? This is exactly what AN aren't doing. Wake up.
 
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