Building new short stroke engine

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Kvinnhering, a most tantalising thread, I am keen to do something similar,you noted some weight data, would you kindly post the dimensions [weight & etc measurements] of the Norton engine, gearbox & when in unit with the isolastics as you assemble them?
A 'recipe' of the items you are utilizing would like-wise be quite helpful, thanks.. James.
 
Hello.
The choice is made ​​and the Many crankcase have come into the frame. This must be a bottom end that can withstand some power. :mrgreen:

The Many crankcase are for road use and weighs 7240 kg, the original 5810 kg.
Building new short stroke engine


Here is the original crankshafts beside Nourish crankshaft I chose, short stroke 80.4. The weight of the original are 10.435 kg and 9.815 kg for Nourish crank.
Building new short stroke engine


I am very impressed by the quality of Carillo rods. The length center to center are 6.570". I weighed the small end to 113g and 413g total. Original rod is 81g and 400g. This is approximately weights. Because it is difficult to weigh this without better equipment that I have in my garage.
Building new short stroke engine

Building new short stroke engine


Wrist pins from JS Motorsport are strong and lighter. They are treated with dimond like coating and is therefore no need for bushes in Carillo rods. Fine parts Jim. Original weighs 80g and JS 51g.
Building new short stroke engine
a
Building new short stroke engine


Here stands JS High Compression piston beside the original. The original weighs 315g with rings and 264g with gapless rings from JS.
Building new short stroke engine


To get the necessary clearance between the piston and the top, the piston must be machined down.
Building new short stroke engine


Piston from JS's jewelry. Thanks Jim for quality parts.
Building new short stroke engine



How it looked before machining. Piston sticking out 2.8mm.
Building new short stroke engine


After machining.
Building new short stroke engine


Here is my method for putting the barrel on the crankcase. Piston are set in the cylinder with the inner locking ring in place. Put down the barrel on three spacers and turn the crank so that the rods come aligned with the hole in the piston. Then enter the wrist pin and then outer locking ring. Move the piston into the barrel before you apply gasket pasta on sealing surfaces. Then lift the barrel to remove the spacer and put the barrel down on the crankcase.
Building new short stroke engine
 
Looking good as it can get on a Norton dream machine Kevin. Make us quiver some more with what you hope to turn it too and power peaks and how you might enjoy this? The response should be orgasmic!
 
Great looking build there.

Good photograph and description of offering the pistons & barrel to the connecting rods. This is something most will find helpful.

Good to see you went with the steel rods and JS pistons; this should give you the durability and peace of mind
 
Made me smile! 10 lbs heavier
MY mate Gaz had me drilling his engine plate to save 1/2 LB....He weighs over 18 stone!...funny old world.
comnoz said:
There is no question the Maney cases are stronger but they are also considerably heavier.

For a street engine I think you would probably be fine with the MK2a cases especially with the Norish crank which is particularly kind to cases. You will want to keep the reciprocating weight as low as possible also.

For a short stroke motor you will want to do a big valve conversion on the Fullauto head to get the most out of it. I am doing two conversions right now. Jim
 
Kvinnhering...

Exactly which of Jims pistons have you used? the +.110" I am guessing... so I wondered how much you have machined from the top from the 2.8mm (.110")

You mentioned earlier 9.3:1, is that you calculation from the use of 10.5:1 850 pistons in a short stroke?

From Jims page...

850 PISTONS (77mm)
Our Medium Compression 850 pistons have stock compression of approx 8.5:1 with shallow valve pockets to allow the use of our pistons with a milled head. They will accept standard size as well as 3mm oversized valves. The deck height is raised .020" higher than original 850 pistons.

Our High Compression 850 pistons have approx 10.5:1 C.R. with the deck height raised .110" higher than the original 850 piston. These High Compression pistons will drop right into your stock street motor if your head has not been milled, leaving a squish band clearance of approximately .050". Milling your head .040" with our High Compression pistons will bump the compression ratio up to approx 11.5:1, however this will require machining an outer ring relief in the top of the piston to give you the necessary squish band clearance - or instead of milling your head you can use our .003" (.1mm) thin head gasket ring. All our Racing/High Compression pistons have deep valve pockets to accommodate big-valve heads using up to 5mm oversize intake and 3mm oversize exhaust valve, as well as stock diameter valves. You can adjust compression with our various copper base and head gaskets
 
Hi SteveA

Yes, the pistons are Jims +.110 flat high commpression. This text are from JS Motorstort web site also.

"Piston options for 750 & 840 Short strokes.

Because of the smaller 750cc displacement, it takes something special to get the compression high enough for a racing short stroke.

Options are:

77mm Flat top HI CR pistons. Use .003" head gasket ring and cut piston crown periphery .040" to get 10.2 CR with stock head.

77mm domed pistons give approx 11.5:1 CR with stock head - NO MACHINING NECESSARY. Big valve heads may have different size combustion chambers.

81mm bore x 80.4 short stroke (840cc) will give approx 12:1 C.R. with domed pistons & stock head."

In order to maintain the required clearance to the head I must machined away 1.35 mm. This is because I have to use the .020 head gasket. According to common practice this is incorrect. But when I measure the combustion chamber on the head which is milled down to 1 mm, I measure a volume of 46 cm3??

Building new short stroke engine


The head looks normal. All valves are new Black Diamond valves. It must be the valve seats are machined too far down. Other suggestions?
To get the correct compression ratio I must measure the volume as the piston makes when they protrude from the barrel at TDC. I've just calculated this theoretical so far.
 
I notice that the squish bands on the pistons are concentric where the squish band on the standard head has been achieved by setting the combustion chamber offset towards the exhaust ? Why would you try t o make a Triumph engine out of a commando engine ? You have the disadvantage of trying to set the cam timing with the one piece cam, and a heavy valve train. The only advantages that I can see is that you get the Norton head with the squish band, and the short stroke might be gentler on the cases. But the 62% balance factor is a step in the wrong direction, if you are concerned about breaking cases. I suggest you must choose how you are going to use the motor. If you want high performance, high revs, I suggest you must tolerate low end shake, and use over 70% balance factor. The 70s Norton production racer used a short stroke, but did not perform any better than the long stroke motor. Everything I've done on my own bike has been towards increasing one of the basic strengths of the design - torque.
I like the look of the Nourish crank, and I would certainly use it. However I think it would only give a bit more reliability, and possibly might prevent ring flutter at high revs, because of the slightly lower piston speed. I believe the long stroke norton motor is on the limit in this respect.
 
Hi acotel.
First of all, squish band are exactly in the center of the piston.

I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing with this engine, the choice was made ​​before I was a member of this forum.
I read Fred Eaton's (Old Britts) story about his Road Racer and decided to build a "bullet proof" short stroke. Who has right "Fred Eaton" or you, the answers will turn out next spring when I take the bike to the dyno test bench (April / May 2013).
 
Put the head on the barrel and look up from the bottom. The squish band looks crescent shaped and is at the inlet side of the cylinder. (At least on the 850 motor, I haven't looked at a 750.)
The Nourish shaft is a good thing, it doesn't have great big ugly bolts holding it together. My old Triumph 500 had a billet crank with 63mm stroke which turned a 650 into a 500. The motor was indestructible, that is why I raced it for 12 years in the 60s and 70s. However it was a nasty piece of shit - really difficult to use effectively, and likely to crash you at any time. Going short stroke is good in theory, but in practice it might not be so good. What you are building is still sensible, but I believe you will lose out a bit on your expectations. I think you will end up with something better than a Triumph 750, but playing with cam timings will be a bit more difficult. What are you going to use the motor for - road or racing ? I suggest you must choose between high revs or low revs, the balance factor is different especially if you are using isolastics. A standard commando is a compromise motorcycle, and as such it doesn't work very well. Personally my preference is always to rigidly mount the motor, balance the crank to about 75%, and use it at moderately high revs with maximim torque output. However I race my bike. If you want t o use it on the road, a bike which literally rocks back and forward at low revs would drive you insane. I believe the best Norton twin which was ever made , was the Norton Manxman 650. The motor was rigidly mounted in a featherbed frame. However that was the limit of the design. The 750 Atlas was a fail, and the commando 750 and 850 tried to do two things and ended up doing neither very well.
The dyno won't tell you very much. This stuff is not only about horsepower, it is the whole package which counts along with the intended purpose.
 
Your project interests me, and I've been thinking about what stroke I would use if I was going to make a billet crank for a commando engine. I think it would be a very difficult decision.
 
Hm, Why can't a short stroke be made advantageous from off idle to 8000?
Its got potential to have more valve area per displacement which is torque making.
As too BF essentially all solid mount Brit twins were in upper 70's to 80's from factory on machine intended for daily city use. Upping BF makes smoother sense across the range. Isolastics can get by on lower BF and therefore less material cost to Norton. Squish band area matters more than slight difference in band shape so not a limiting factor in this short short TDC turbulence, likely better than factory. Many hot hemi's ain't got any squish bands. There's enough room in this head bands to put in a couple angled Singh Grooves, like Sir Eddy land speeder. Cam would be tricky part for power band but can adv/retard to compensate for weakness some what. Someone's got to do it so why not Kevin.

Peel has tri-links and is so smooth and power handling stable I'm putting a blown big block in her to take more advantage of the insane handling. So be pensive of what ya may be missing out on with responsive power that don't annoy or blur sense of quantum level awareness of rear patch adhesion.
 
Kvinnhering said:
But when I measure the combustion chamber on the head which is milled down to 1 mm, I measure a volume of 46 cm3??
and
Kvinnhering said:
Other suggestions?
To get the correct compression ratio I must measure the volume as the piston makes when they protrude from the barrel at TDC. I've just calculated this theoretical so far.

You are on the right track as you need to add the volume attributed to the thickness of the gasket and subtract the piston volume above the top deck of the cylinder. You can simply calculate the gasket volume but must measure the piston crown volume.

An alternate approach is to assemble the motor, using a dial indicator and degree wheel, get to TDC, tilt the motor a bit so the plug hole is near vertical and then fill through the plug hole until you reach the top of the plug threads. Subtract the 2.44cc for the plug hole and add the 0.2cc for the annular space around the plug insulator and call it good. You can confirm the volume with your specific plug but I doubt it will be a significant difference.

An example of the exercise below on my 500 cc ultra short stroke (59.6mm stroke).

In Cubic Centimeters

26.8 Pipette volume including plug hole to top of threads
2.44 Volume of plug hole - Calculated from dimensions 17.3mm L X 13 OD1; 13.8 OD2
0.20 Pipette volume of annular space around plug insulator
24.56 Combustion Chamber

Jim Comstock gave the advice to smear a little grease around the top of the cylinder liner so that you don't get any leakage past the rings while introducing the oil into the combustion chamber. If you use enough grease to fill the annular space between the piston crown and cylinder (above the top ring) it is easy enough to calculate that volume. On the 500cc referenced above it came out to 0.81cc which should be added to the total combustion chamber volume.
 
Hobot, I don't think it was a matter of 'getting by' with a lower balance factor when using isolastics. I believe the intent was always to reduce vibration. A factor of 58% was used so that the bike did not shake at low revs. The isolastics were also used to dampen vibration, and isolate the rider from the motor. The effect was to make the motor unsatisfactory at high revs, the centrifugal loads cause the cases to fail by cracking through the drive side bearing housing. The isolastics produce a handling problem and require adjustment if the bike is to handle well. The whole thing was a different approach to the Manxman 650, but it had to be because of the increase in capacity. A rigidly mounted commando motor with a high balance factor, in a non-isolastic frame is unsuited to riding in traffic on public roads. But I believe it is the only way a road racer should be constructed, however the vibration at low revs must be allowed for. I seriously believe that if you want a road commando to go fast, you need two bikes - one for slow riding in traffic, the other for blasting around twisty back roads . With my racer I use a factor of 72%, and the motor rigidly mounted but with allowance for some spring, so the forces don't stress the frame and crack it. It vibrates like hell at low revs, but going up through the gears,and flat out, it is difficult not to over-rev it, it is so smooth. It is a really nice bike to ride in a race, I love it. It causes no anxiety, and inspires confidence . Dennis Poore might have been better off producing a sports version of the commando alongside his normal product. I believe the 750cc short stroke production racer used isolastics and was a bit of a fail. I suggest the compromise required to reduce vibration at low revs was a bad move.
 
acotrel said:
Hobot, I don't think it was a matter of 'getting by' with a lower balance factor when using isolastics. I believe the intent was always to reduce vibration. A factor of 58% was used so that the bike did not shake at low revs. The isolastics were also used to dampen vibration, and isolate the rider from the motor. The effect was to make the motor unsatisfactory at high revs, the centrifugal loads cause the cases to fail by cracking through the drive side bearing housing. The isolastics produce a handling problem and require adjustment if the bike is to handle well. The whole thing was a different approach to the Manxman 650, but it had to be because of the increase in capacity. A rigidly mounted commando motor with a high balance factor, in a non-isolastic frame is unsuited to riding in traffic on public roads. But I believe it is the only way a road racer should be constructed, however the vibration at low revs must be allowed for. I seriously believe that if you want a road commando to go fast, you need two bikes - one for slow riding in traffic, the other for blasting around twisty back roads . With my racer I use a factor of 72%, and the motor rigidly mounted but with allowance for some spring, so the forces don't stress the frame and crack it. It vibrates like hell at low revs, but going up through the gears,and flat out, it is difficult not to over-rev it, it is so smooth. It is a really nice bike to ride in a race, I love it. It causes no anxiety, and inspires confidence . Dennis Poore might have been better off producing a sports version of the commando alongside his normal product. I believe the 750cc short stroke production racer used isolastics and was a bit of a fail. I suggest the compromise required to reduce vibration at low revs was a bad move.

The Commando racers did have their successes in road racing but I think it was short lived due to the Japanese motorcycle dominance which was coming into full bloom. I have raced a more or less stock ISO bike as well as a very well sorted out Herb Becker Commando and I can assure you that although they are different beasts they are fast.

On to my key comment which has to do with balance factor. I suggest that the solid frame (higher) balance factors are a compromise and that the 53% (dry) on a commando is mechanically ideal. This gets down to bending moment diagrams along the axis of the crankshaft at tdc, bdc and 90 or 270 degrees. The goal is the minimize the magnitude of the load reversals (due to bending) on the crankshaft. To make an oversimplified exagerated example take a balance factor of 100%; things would be nice at TDC and BDC but you would intorduce much greater and unnecessary bending moments on the crankshaft at 90 and 270 degrees.

Again, developing the bending moment diagrams and finding the least load reversal is the goal.

Upping the balance factors for the solid hook up frames is a compromise for rider Comfort. One of my featherbed racers has a stock Combat engine and is down right abusive vibration at speed so an 83% BF is necessary.

When you think about it, why would Norton compromise engine durability once they sorted out a vibration isolation mechanism. Why would they not just leave it at 83% if it were ideal for the engine since the whole thing was now rubber mounted.
 
acotrel said:
The only advantages that I can see is that you get the Norton head with the squish band, and the short stroke might be gentler on the cases.

Larger intake valves.
Larger exhaust valves (if needed)
Lower mean piston speed (less friction loss) for same mass flow (air & fuel) through the engine when compared to a stock stroke.
More mass flow (ie Power) for maximum mean piston speed when compared to a stock stroke Norton.
Potential to enhance quench (squish) area due to larger bore.
And most important - bragging rights!
 
I'm sticking to my story that Norton found the mid 50's the *minimal* BF counter mass that isolastics could forgive NOT that was ideal or optimal. Low freq soft vibes are not that annoying but the hi freq are damaging to rider and chassis items. There are examples of 80's BF isolastics that worked fine. Both Jim Schmidt and me came up with same BF of ~77% to get the closest to circular orbital, his in solid mount, mine in rubber. What seems to offend everyone, especially those trying to show me how bad their solid new age balloon tire things are, including myself on inline 4 and my v=twin, is that Peel is a one in a row so far that has solved all handling and vibration issues so only seeks a lot more power to make her mark and lead a new way to make bikes that enjoy going around tight as can be. My quandary was the stroke-rod issue for rpm but realized the hard way regular stroke and likely short stroke are allegic to rpm, so went with torque displacement first then boost on top. BF issues all revolve around pilot and chassis tolerance vs power handling loads and I'm hear to tell ya you can have both while eating your cake walk away from the poor corner cripples that are too ringy dingy rigid. Only thing Peel lacked was wheelie power above 100 mph into straights. Next edition will not wheelie w/o on purpose extra jerk up clutch drop efforts for show not go. I hope to put old rubber ducky isolastics back in the news, once tamed just right but not too much. I absolutely do not press my un-tammed Cdo to any corner rates to brag about at all, as very scary - dangerous to me knowing the limits of them the sure hard way. Remember I'm used to having to watch out not to spin out on Gravel or tarmac on instant response tire spin since I was 20 and then again in mid 50's yrs old. I've not gone very fast since Peel over rev'd her crank and cam drive into shrapnel in 2005.
 
BF has nothing to do with frequency.

Frequency has everything to do with RPM.

Magnitude of load reversals has everything to do with BF and RPM.

Anything else is opinion.

Comfort is somewhat subjective. In other words the vibration frequency and magnitude (amplitude) of the vibration and how it interacts with the frame and especially how it is percieved by the rider.
 
Kvinnhering said:
Hi SteveA

Yes, the pistons are Jims +.110 flat high commpression.

In order to maintain the required clearance to the head I must machined away 1.35 mm. This is because I have to use the .020 head gasket. According to common practice this is incorrect. But when I measure the combustion chamber on the head which is milled down to 1 mm, I measure a volume of 46 cm3??

The head looks normal. All valves are new Black Diamond valves. It must be the valve seats are machined too far down. Other suggestions?
To get the correct compression ratio I must measure the volume as the piston makes when they protrude from the barrel at TDC. I've just calculated this theoretical so far.

OK so we have the same pistons. What were you expecting as a compression ratio? 10:1? and what do you calculate with the 46cc?

I have yet to decide, but I may get Mick Hemming to do a fully hemisperical head with large valves, which I assume increases the combustion chamber size and lowers the compression a little! though this can be offset a touch by needing to machine the piston a little less....I really don't want to go lower than 10:1...but mine is a race application, I don't think you want any higher than 10:1 for street use, unless you are going to carry octane booster with you.....

Steve
 
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