Brakes - Style or performance...

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mike996

mike996

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A few years back I purchased the CNW front brake mastercyliner kit. The good part is that the kit provides superb braking for my '73 850 - the equal of modern motorcycle braking, and much superior to a sleeved oem master cylinder ( MC). I have had a standard oem MC, a sleeved oem MC, and the CNW kit. But the CNW kit requires a different set of switch gear to go with the Brembo MC. I really prefer the oem switchgear...but that means I have to use my sleeved OEM MC. I PREFER the oem switchgear as far as appearance and operation is concerned but the sleeved oem MC is much inferior as far as feel and stopping power compared to the CNW kit.

However, once again I find myself preferring the oem switchgear to the point that tomorrow I am going to remove the CNW MC kit/switchgear and go back to the sleeved oem. I'm not sure why I'm doing this since I've done it previously and after a couple of days riding decided that the CNW MC is so superior to a sleeved oem unit that I changed back to the CNW. But, once again, I so much prefer the oem switchgear that I'm going to do it again and see if I can deal with the poorer braking so I can have the oem Norton switch gear.

So...C'mon CNW, figure out how to somehow do the braking capability/feel of your Brembo kit and use the oem Norton switchgear! :)
 
Are you using the same caliper with both master cylinders? What size master cylinders are the sleeved and CNW masters? CNW, Brembo and OEM brand is not the reason for a change in brake performance, it's the ratio of caliper piston area to master cylinder piston area. Once you have the same ratios with either setup you'll probably find the performance is the same. In other words, you can have both. Style and performance.
 
The one on eBay is pretty cool, but will not fit a 75. I am trying to stick with a sleeved OEM master to keep the original look. FWIW
 
Thats the reason, why I prefer the Andover Norton master cylinder. I just ordered one and it arrived yesterday. It is a Grimeca master and it looks good.
Even the lever looks like the OEM. There is a CNC machined adapter plate to fit on the Lucas switchbox.

Ralf

Brakes - Style or performance...
 
That doesn't look anything like the oem Mastercylinder (at least on a pre-75). I want to see the identical MC with the performance of the CNW brembo kit.

"Are you using the same caliper with both master cylinders?"

Yes, the oem Lockheed caliper

"What size master cylinders are the sleeved and CNW masters?"

I have no idea. I assume the CNW master is smaller ID to provide more feel/power but I don't know that for sure. I would ASSUME that if the oem MC could be sleeved to the same ID as the CNW Brembo, the performance would be the same but again, I don't know that. Maybe there is a different leverage ratio involved as well.

I just discovered I am out of brake fluid so I have to pick up a bottle before I can continue with reinstalling the sleeved oem MC.
 
mike996 said:
That doesn't look anything like the oem Mastercylinder (at least on a pre-75). I want to see the identical MC with the performance of the CNW brembo kit.
Click to expand...

Thats's right - I don't like this look on my bike either. But I want to ride safe and read about problems with resleeved cylinders.
 
Heck, if I wanted to ride safe I'd be riding a new Honda/Yamaha/Triumph/Suzuki/Ducati/Kawasaki! :)

Seriously, I suspect that after a ride coming up on Friday I'll probably put the CNW Brembo back on like I did the last two time I did this same thing. As they say, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

But the oem switchgear sure looks better - I agree that the Brembo MC with an adapter plate to take the oem switch gear is a good compromise.
 
mike996 said:
But the oem switchgear sure looks better - I agree that the Brembo MC with an adapter plate to take the oem switch gear is a good compromise.
Click to expand...

The Brembo MC does not differ much from the Grimeca. But the AN kit is much more expensive.
In Germany the difference is not such big. I can get the CNW cylinder from Holland and the AN cylinder
from Norton Motors Germany. So there are not much currency and logistics costs. The difference is about
70€ (~95$). For me it is acceptable for the plate. I suppose in US the AN cylinder is about the double of the CNW.
With the Brembo MC you have to include the costs for the extra switchbox as well. (Honda style :twisted: ?? )

Ralf
 
Hey,

While I am not going to claim that I know what exactly goes in the the master cylinder of the Brembo, I can tell you for sure that its far more than the actual size of the piston bore that will determine the performance of a new Brembo versus an old Lockheed master cylinder. There are also several parts of the internal mechanism that are patented on the Brembo. If you look at this the reverse way, putting a Lockheed (sleeved) master in place of the Brembo, with the rest of our kit, doesn't even come close in overall performance.

I do realize that many want to keep their stock switch clusters when doing a conversion. This is a bit tricky since the big size of the stock cluster doesn't really match up with the relatively small face of the Brembo.

Now having said that....I am listening to the feedback and have a couple of possible designs that may work. There are several items list ahead of this though and will not happen until late summer, early fall.

Thanks

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com
 
Regardless of brand of brake components, if the master cylinder and caliper are not sized right, having the proper ratio, you will not have a great performing brake. I doubt a Brembo will create more pressure than another brand master cylinder of the same size. We are talking basic physics here. The force used to create that pressure may be less or more, depending on the leverage. That being said, the Brembo setup sold by CNW are probably the best brake components you can buy for your Norton.
 
JimC said:
Regardless of brand of brake components, if the master cylinder and caliper are not sized right, having the proper ratio, you will not have a great performing brake. I doubt a Brembo will create more pressure than another brand master cylinder of the same size. We are talking basic physics here. The force used to create that pressure may be less or more, depending on the leverage. That being said, the Brembo setup sold by CNW are probably the best brake components you can buy for your Norton.
Click to expand...

Jim,

You are definitely right about needing the right size bore depending on what type of caliper, or calipers you are working with. I also think what you are mentioning in regards to how the piston pressure is created, plays a big part. Thats where there is a big difference in old and new technology. The Lockheed has more of an on/off feel where modern masters are more progressive. They almost feel spungy....but not in a bad way.

I have used a different type of Brembo caliper on a few machines. It's what they call a 4-pad. Brembo determined that most of the pressure applied to the friction surface comes from the leading edge of the pad. So what they did is designed a 4 piston caliper that uses 4, quite small, individual brake pads. Essentially doubling the leading edge surface. Whats interesting about using this caliper is that it feels like the bike slows down with less pressure applied to the brake lever.

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com
 
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