Bike handling

acotrel said:

a Manx which has the weight well forward with 24.5 degree rake

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That is not a number that appears when discussing manx steering angles....
???

Somewhere I took a test ride on an older model of (roadgoing) Suzook.
The sales guy warned me about the 'slow steering'.
It was WAAAY more agile than many a bike I have ridden !!!

Commandos it is quoted if you see a rock on the road and try to avoid it,
you need plenty of distance to get it to do that.
Quite so....

Mike Hailwood made his racing comeback on Ducati's, let us not forget.
The IoM TT (1978 ?), and a Castrol 6 Hour (1977) at a tight little track in Oz.
http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/~/med ... arts-1.jpg
http://www.ducati.com/pub/image.do?rule ... =image.png

His maxim was "slow into a corner, fast out".
Worked for him, he won the TT and finished strongly in the (earlier) 6 Hour with his co-rider.
http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/class ... azbea.aspx

not tried roasted broccoli, must give it a try

I was most impressed by Hailwood's ride at Mallory Park on the Ducati, however I think the circuit suited the bike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LnNP7mw7XY

I think the Frank Code 'twist of the wrist' video is very good, however it tends to generalise on bike handling, and that is not the situation in real life. The scariest bike I ever rode was a very much worked over 250cc Ducati - a crash is a crash !

Rohan, It is possible I am wrong about that 24.5 degree rake on the Manx. A while back I was discussing this matter with a friend who has a Triton based on an original mid fifties Manx featherbed, and that was the figure. His bike has 18 inch wheels, however that should not affect the rake. In the other way of expressing rake the figure would be 65.5 degrees.

I'm dissapointed in your sloppy and incomplete essay Ludwig.

How to barbeque broccoli ?

"In the battle for the internet, the power of humanity to overcome hate gives me hope. I’m rooting for the humans over the trolls. I know we can win.” Ellen Pao
Ta.

Dated 2003 so must be better by now. If ya listen must to TT or Irish racers all of the fastest guys will describe just handing on for dear life at some places and hope the wild wiggle jiggles self setters but may never hear again from those that its does not in time.

Earlier in the year during the MotoGP (top level of MC racing) TV broadcast, onscreen telemetry showed John Hopkins reaching 56 degrees of lean (from straight up). This equates to 1.48 g's. This past race, the winner Casey Stoner showed 63 degrees of lean going thru the corkscrew at Laguna Seca. 63 degrees equates to 1.96 g's. Banking in the corkscrew allowed for more lean than what could be achieved on a flat turn.

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http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f68/max ... cle-43510/


http://www.sportrider.com/tech/g-force- ... s-ask-geek

Another way to measure handling capacity is how much atheletics it takes to control not crashing which is another thing super duper moderns strain me too much yet non of them could hook up enough to grey out or tunnel down vision, pashaw, just work the snot of out ya not refeah and envigor - which can dull some the split second pilot actions over a few laps. Also darn valve train buzz in rigids conceals the tire patch reasonances geting through very pure, yuk.

We currently have little information on the levels of endurance and strength required in top-level riders due to the high speeds, sharp accelerations, rapid decelerations during braking and inclination of the bike on curves2,3,4. Nonetheless, many riders have anecdotally commented on the physical challenges of driving a motorcycle:

“Fitness makes a big difference on the bike,” said Nicky Hayden. “Once you physically get a little tired, you mentally start making mistakes and that's when you get hurt. And when you fall off these bikes, it doesn't exactly tickle.”

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http://www.aspetar.com/journal/viewarti ... ahozLWCnT4

Another way to measure handling capacity is how much atheletics it takes to control not crashing which is another thing super duper moderns strain me too much yet non of them could hook up enough to grey out or tunnel down vision, pashaw, just work the snot of out ya not refeah and envigor - which can dull some the split second pilot actions over a few laps. Also darn valve train buzz in rigids conceals the tire patch reasonances geting through very pure, yuk.

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good lord

what a load of complete nonsense

Yep just gies to show ya do not know what ya are missing out on both tire patch adhesion and the counter forces of pilto conflicts for wiggly jiggly corner cripples. Grey out hits about 3 Gs, tunel vision after 4, on a Commando.

good lord

what a load of complete nonsense[/quote]

not all of it the broccoli recipes are quite useful

This thread has been quite funny to me, I showed the Japanese sign to my wife who translated it , ......don't put your trash here......or as someone else tried unsuccessfully to translate it as... don't dump here...but got it wrong. Gotta love the broccoli reciepe too. Both made me laugh outloud !! and to think, I wasn't even going to go to the pub tonight

Yep just gies to show ya do not know what ya are missing out on both tire patch adhesion and the counter forces of pilto conflicts for wiggly jiggly corner cripples. Grey out hits about 3 Gs, tunel vision after 4, on a Commando.

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and another load of nonsense

Yeah yeah yeah blah blah blah thats what Master Code instructors told me and him plus the snooty sports riders I would piss off on purpose prior games - asking to tag along - till bored, then from end of their pack, picked me off one or 3 at a time beating them into enteries then eased out of sight with counter steering level of Gs so not to temp over excited-angry pilots on corner cripples to risk life trying to follow Peels lines. Would not press em very close from behind for same reason, as moderns are so dam close to crashing about time they get fun I have not desire to hurt someone - so waied till out of sight to really let Peels hair loose. All the rest of you keep pointing at fatso tire rigid springy buzz bombs with computer control power limiters as bench mark in handling while I KNOW them as dangerous corner cripples that go SHITSO at half the loads Peel could hook up, but only on rear tire as once over couple G side loads it impossible to keep both tires in contract and no tires in PHASE Four energy handling. Yo-all remarks are all pointed at me me me, while my remarks are all pointed at uniquely tri linked isolastic Commando on skinny tires. I feel the pokes at me like anyone but how can I take too personal when I know ya do not know what I am talking about. I am imprinted on stunt water and snow skiing and tunnel hull race boats, plus stunt aircraft, soar planes, crop duster helicopters and WWII Corsair in Hawaii But none of them required much breath control to fend off grey out tunnel vision, though would have to be strapped down to stay in tunnel hull or 3 point hydro planes snagging turns not to fly out of seat but Peel jerked me around harsher. Freaked me out working up to this level after Master Codes class I needed to learn how tarmac behaves with going so harsh its as loose as THE Gravel - but turns out tarmac is childs play compared so have lost interest in spanking race bikes except to put a certain Norton Commando name out there for world wide challengers to try to match. I got my riding wits from crashing a bunch off pavement so thats my real enemy to coquier or die trying. Only thing that topped the snap Gs Peel hit me with was the tall play ground swing sets you could swing so high it would stop over horizontal then fall straight down to snap whip at bottom to ZING off in lowered G forces. Bungee jumping or base leaping are not even in same orbit of G jerks.

Think-feel-ponder what keeps me such an constant obnoxious unbelievable reporter in face of the nasty mean reactions which happened to often it eventually became a hobby for Peel face to face on track and public - so just wait and see. I just want way more power to torque ratio to up the speeds in the opens as the computer limited racers can not hook up like a real dragster in turns or bee lines, just can eventually hit higher top speeds but then a mild turn appears and whole race pack or a few pack leaders all bunch up to start drag race into opens again >> till next corner pile ups, BORING. Flat trackers and off roaders know brakes are for kids not Ricochet Rabbits.

To the original post sometimes adjusting the steering head can get the results needed. I remember Nick Haydens GSXR getting protested cause the tire to motor gap was smaller than everyone elses. Of course the team said it was a crashed frame.

Cant wait to ride my Commando in Hobot country. I prefer the tightest twisty roads and NW Arkansas is full of them. Every bike since my RZ350 is too big, out of its element, handful to ride there. I'm sure its the same everywhere, guys get too much bike go to the mountains and there in way over there heads.

Pretty cool letter Steve. Was that from Oak Hill?

hobot said:

Another way to measure handling capacity is how much atheletics it takes to control not crashing which is another thing super duper moderns strain me too much yet non of them could hook up enough to grey out or tunnel down vision, pashaw, just work the snot of out ya not refeah and envigor - which can dull some the split second pilot actions over a few laps. Also darn valve train buzz in rigids conceals the tire patch reasonances geting through very pure, yuk.

We currently have little information on the levels of endurance and strength required in top-level riders due to the high speeds, sharp accelerations, rapid decelerations during braking and inclination of the bike on curves2,3,4. Nonetheless, many riders have anecdotally commented on the physical challenges of driving a motorcycle:

“Fitness makes a big difference on the bike,” said Nicky Hayden. “Once you physically get a little tired, you mentally start making mistakes and that's when you get hurt. And when you fall off these bikes, it doesn't exactly tickle.”

Click to expand...

http://www.aspetar.com/journal/viewarti ... ahozLWCnT4

Click to expand...

One of the things I agree with in that Frank Code video is about hanging onto the bars too tight. I tend to do that for the first few laps of any practice session. After that I relax and don't try to steer the bike by exerting myself. Where your mind goes, that is where the bike should go. If the power band is harsh, and the steering geometry makes the bike feel heavy in or out of corners, the whole deal becomes tiring. I raced a bike like that for a few years, and it always gave me a high level of anxiety. A good level of fitness always helps, however if it is essential it probably means something is wrong with the bike.

Ozarks is world class ride area but also deadly as weekly lose a rider to 3 per week d/t over speed in turns, tructor pulling out in front or hitting a slow tractor over a crest. Much as I brag on riding skill I get too scared sometimes to face it and take cage instead. If you see a deer or cluster of them in the way or off to the side my best advice is not able to stop short is aggressively aim and beep right at them so no matter which way they go its out of your way, uusully but some times if slowed up to 30 and pass them one may leap forward at you and still get ya. Each cycle and rider has its own sweet spots for things and only way to find out is trial and error. I have some special places on comutes I can try different ways on different bikes and find ordinary Commando worse than a modern corner crpples so have fun finding out why.

A modern bike is very different to a commando. With the increased power, the steering geometry cannot be safely set up to tighten the line of the bike in corners. So on a very tight circuit a modern bike is usually on the gas quite a bit later. The thing about more powerful bikes is that the crashes come at a much higher speed, the risk of having one is probably less due to better suspension and tyres. What I find on road race circuits when there are modern bikes in corners at the same time as myself - there is a point a few tens of yards from the corner where you are likely to tangle with them as they power down off the ripple strip. You need to get ahead of them or face a minor crisis.

I know little about scientific handling concepts fork angle, trail, wheel base, fouling limits, CoG front to back and top to bottom, swing arm pivot height, placement of crank shaft gryo, mass of wheels, size and profile and pressure in tires, suspension and surface and grade in wind gusts or not...

In phase 1 & 2 handling, ie: normal straight or counter steering with both tires in effective traction...
Do NOTE- much to Master Code misconception the front does not steer the bike, proof is hands off steering at any speed - bars will always directly road Follow and turn toward the direction desired. Counter steering only required to lean faster by over coming wheel gryos resisting angle changes. Rear steers when it matters most.

I know that to stay up right forks must oscillate at rates to compensate for mass of cycle+pilot like a pendulum on contact patch pivot while fully upright or at max fouling lean angle. This is one harmonic adding subtracting in cycles all the time to all other forces, slight as it may be it can be just enough to spook ya unpredictability. Only way I know on to compensate is simply not stay in smooth corner loading but for short times - between longer intervals of WOT or upright inline slowing.

Another thing before forks matter much if really pressing turns is tendency of cycle to fall down easier than popping back up. My impression is V twins fight ya going down so lose it before apex while inline 4 fight ya popping back up so lose it coming out of max lean. THE Gravel taught me partially whats going on, as rear traction gets less so slightly more slippage the forks normal automatic slight oscillation to stay upright kicks in to snatch forks into straight steer an instant which causes a twist in forks/frame/swing arm for rear tail waging. Sometimes can toss pilot out of saddle but still dragging and bike self corrects amazing fast BY Auto Straight steering.

Plus before fork steering matters their double hinge angle puts a lot of lean load on cycle, counter steering for some reason throws bike over into a turn while straight steering lifts hard to point can launch into high side rather than just pop up to safety. How best to construct a cycle that none of this upsets at all would be what I call totally Neutral handling and could give a fella multiple orgasms. For the deeper thinkers, stand next to cycle lean it some then see which was to turn forks so hinge bends to drop bike if someone shoved it form the rear and which way bike easier to fold up by lifting upright more if suddenly shoved from the rear.

After above factoids can consider which way the front tire is pulling to for pilot to add or subtract all the above. There is a motto about when in doubt NAIL it, which tends to lift front out of effective traction - thank goodness.

My quickest down dirty method to assess a cycles handling quirks is let half the air out of both tires at once, weehowdoggieDoo.

LOOK :shock:



He's moved it forward , from where it drips oil . :twisted: