"Big Red" and "The Blues" project

Camp6 said:

I have also started to arrange the boxes into parts specific bins (motor, covers, front end/shocks, etc.)

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1. Assuming that this isn't a troll, don't mix up the parts of the bikes. Keep them separate, for now.
2. Don't try to pull that rocker spindle out without heating the head first and using the right tool. There is precious little metal holding the spindles in place and trying to remove or install them without heating the head first is risking ruining the head by tearing the soft aluminium.
3. Find out about the nearest INOA chapter and see about any local riders. There's always a few, no matter where you are. They have experience and tools you can't get over the net.

http://inoanorton.com/Chapters/

Camp6 said:

"The Blues" VIN: 301*60, also a MKII 850.

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Wow!

Camp6 said:

"The Blues" VIN: 301*60, also a MKII 850.

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Its been mentioned here and elsewhere already, but 301*60 is a Mk1 850 Model.
There may not be a lot of difference with the Mk2 model, but its for sure a Mk1.
If you start out on the wrong foot, its sure to lead to trouble somewhere later on.

Its perhaps also worth repeating that almost all the cycleparts on this bike are AF sized, and some of the engine is AF and some BSC (british Cycle thread = 26 tpi).
You'll need both AF and BS sized wrenches..

If you're not familiar, AF I think means across flats. So yes get yourself a good set of American standard sockets and combos. Plus a kit of Whitworth would be great, and a set of metric just for drill, but you'll still end up making a few special tools that need to be ground down or thinned, but not more than 5 in the spanner/wrench department. Good set of Allen wrenches will help.

Then there's the special tools, only one really needed is the timing spindle puller. The rest can be made or adapted.

I've a large box of AF, BSW and metric spanners etc in the garage, but for the everyday Norton Spannering I've a set of these "Metrinch" spanners do most of the jobs really well, I hardly ever need to go for the specific imperial spanners.

I'd always wanted a set of the sockets, but remember them being a tad expensive back in my poor days :lol:

http://www.metrinch-tools.com/

Camp6 said:

... and began using some liquid wrench on some of the parts to get some motion back into them.

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That can do more damage than it fixes.

You have loosened the stuck parts, but you are working corrosion against dissimilar metals and causing damage (to a degree), when you should use a minimum of motion to first separate the parts, then carefully clean them before attempting to re-acquaint them.

Gotcha. Are you suggesting a wire brush then? I have only experienced serious corrosion on the outer most nuts/bolts, ie; foot rest bolts etc. I worked on cleaning the carbs and bowl this weekend and found the ever so common "coffee-sludge" in the left bowl. The right bowl was near clean with some minor yellowing from gas evaporation and build up.

My main concern at this point is when I look into the exhaust port. The inner area appears to be severely rusted and almost looks fused. The right side port is worse than the left and has a white"ish" powder. I vacuumed out what I could to be able to see better. I know that area of MD that the bikes are form is near brackish water, but the area inside the port almost seems salt-water corroded. My plan is to assemble the bike so I can make sure that it starts, and runs, and work from there. I don't want to strip it down, painted, and find out at re-assembly that it has major issues then. I had been advised by different people to try and get it running and work from there, which is the route I am going to take. With that being said, I also don't want to cause any damage to the motor if it already has some issues.

Does anyone know of any Norton clubs or chapters in the mid-Maryland or MD eastern shore area? I had received a message (thank you again) of the INOA, but the closest location is still a long trip and was wondering if there are any other groups than anyone may know of. I plan on reaching out to the Delaware Valley Norton Riders in hopes that a member may be near by.

You may want to drain the oil out of the sumps & primarys to make sure these bikes are not Hurricane bikes that have been submerged?


Also , I mentioned ( Evaporust) before, If it is heated to about 130 deg. F it works quite well.

You can't always judge parts by looks.

"before & after"



You have to strip each part, thoroughly clean it (solvent, plastic brush, wire brush, 000 steel wool, etc, depending on materials), THEN carefully measure the wear surfaces and compare to specifications listed in the book. When no specs are given, you typically want a smooth sliding fit for parts that interact with movement, and either a smooth light push fit or press fit for various different parts that shouldn't move/rotate.

The inverse can be true for some parts; they LOOK fine (shiny, clean, smooth), but they are worn beyond spec and can fail with varying degrees of collateral destruction.

If you are going to use any form of wire brush make sure it has BRASS wire.
Brass is fine on alloy,fasteners with no problems.
The old school ones with wooden handles have the smaller gauge (flexible) bristles unlike those with the pressed steel bodies that are to stiff. (imo)
The finish will depend on the amount of etched corrosion.

Camp6 said:

My main concern at this point is when I look into the exhaust port. The inner area appears to be severely rusted and almost looks fused. The right side port is worse than the left and has a white"ish" powder.

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Why are you concerned about rust and corrosion? These engines will need to be completely torn down and rebuilt. Looking at the pictures, they all look like they were open to the elements, either missing rocker covers, carbs or pipes. Can't tell if the plugs were out. No matter, if any moisture got in there, they will need to be torn down. You can try and get them running like this, but likely will cause more damage even if you can get any of them started.

In reading this thread it really seems that you do not know what this will take to get even one of these bikes in drivable shape let alone restored (still can't tell what your plan is here...drivers or restored).

Very confusing, like you think you can put pieces from the bikes together and get one done...but all the pieces need work.

Those of us that have restored bikes (and classic cars) understand that you need to start by choosing one of the bikes and tear it down and figure out what it needs. On these the first place I would start is by pulling the engine and tranny and tearing them down...you have no idea of condition on any of the internals.

Sorry if I sound a little pointed, but like many of us have said in this thread and the earlier thread...you have your work cut out for you and will spend 3 times what you think right now to get even one of these bikes running and street safe.

dennisgb said:

Camp6 said:

My main concern at this point is when I look into the exhaust port. The inner area appears to be severely rusted and almost looks fused. The right side port is worse than the left and has a white"ish" powder.

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Why are you concerned about rust and corrosion? These engines will need to be completely torn down and rebuilt. Looking at the pictures, they all look like they were open to the elements, either missing rocker covers, carbs or pipes. Can't tell if the plugs were out. No matter, if any moisture got in there, they will need to be torn down. You can try and get them running like this, but likely will cause more damage even if you can get any of them started.

In reading this thread it really seems that you do not know what this will take to get even one of these bikes in drivable shape let alone restored (still can't tell what your plan is here...drivers or restored).

Very confusing, like you think you can put pieces from the bikes together and get one done...but all the pieces need work.

Those of us that have restored bikes (and classic cars) understand that you need to start by choosing one of the bikes and tear it down and figure out what it needs. On these the first place I would start is by pulling the engine and tranny and tearing them down...you have no idea of condition on any of the internals.

Sorry if I sound a little pointed, but like many of us have said in this thread and the earlier thread...you have your work cut out for you and will spend 3 times what you think right now to get even one of these bikes running and street safe.

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Amen. A great summary of "basket case restoration ".

My plan for the bikes is to get the bikes running and then work on them over time and EVENTUALLY have a bike near restoration quality. the agreement I have with the owner is that I will get the bike(s) stripped, he will have the frame, tank, covers painted and then I will get them back for the re-assembley. He knows that the bike will not be prestine show room quality, but will have a nice rider. I know that the project is going to be difficult and arduous at times, but for me that works as a stress releiver. Mind distranctions like this project are good for the soul. Although some of the comments and advise like that of "dennisgb" could be taken as blunt or forward, I still appreciate the advise.

I'm thinking of heading to the "Vintage Motorcycle Daze" in Blue Bell, PA on August 10 if anyone else is heading there. Seems like it's a pretty cool swap/show and I'm looking foraward to seeing some of the parts, exhibits, shows, and obviously the bikes. (http://www.oilypipes.com/motorcycleDaze2013.jpges)

I was just looking through the "Pictures of your Norton Commandos" thread and on the last page saw this guy's 1st restoration project here (2nd one down, ioginy):

pictures-your-norton-commandos-t6210-600.html

I thought it might be good inspiration , and it only took a year.

Going to pick up some Evapo-rust and a bucket to soak some goodies...Will post the before and afters.

Camp6 said:

Although some of the comments and advise like that of "dennisgb" could be taken as blunt or forward, I still appreciate the advise.

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Not trying to be blunt or forward, but following your threads it just feels like you don't have a clear understanding of what your getting into here. From experience trying to help you to get a better feel so you won't be discouraged and have "sticker shock" when the reality of what this cost comes into to view.

We all totally get the theraputic aspect and the feeling of accomplishment when you bring old iron back to life.

Being totally upfront and honest, these bikes are not in very good condition. You could classify them as barn finds or rolling basket cases, but on the low end of that scale because they all look to have been stored outside. When machines are left outside there are so many parts that are detroyed and not even usable, not to mention the difficulty of disassembly due to rusted and seized fasteners, etc. Not to mention the damage done to the engines and gear boxes. Water inside either could be a nightmare...seized pistons, rusted cylinders beyond repair, frozen valves which you have already observed. Gears and shafts that are rusted together...on and on. That's not to say you can't repair and rebuild, just the cost is so much higher...much more than you might think. Building a bike around a frame and a gas tank with all new parts is cost prohibitive for most people...and not a very good value in the end. Say $30-40K. Even though you say you just want decent riders, can you accept a bike with a bunch of rusty parts? Then too, sorting through what parts to use...and the potential for failure due to a bad part choice...it just seems like this will be very difficult, even for an experienced restorer or bike builder. I've done many classic motorcycles and cars in the past 40 years and I would not consider taking this on.

There are Commandos out there in better shape and more appropriate for your purposes. If you bought a complete bike that wasn't stored outside with an engine that at least turns over for say $2500-3500 you will be money ahead because you will have a good base to work from. You might put a few thousand into it and have a good bike when done and much less labor. The bikes you have will need so many new or restored parts you could double or triple that number (base price plus cost of parts) and that is why some of us keep pushing you to think hard about whether these bikes are worth the effort.

Another way to look at it might be to part these bikes out to buy a better example or possibly two. There are valuable parts on all of these bikes that could pay for something better.

If you really have your heart set on these bikes, then the advice given before to concentrate on one and start with the engine and tranny. You need to have a sound drive train first. All the other stuff is a waste of time until you have a good engine and tranny to build around.

So I attended the Vintage Motorcycle Daze in PA this weekend and saw some prerry nice bikes. Only a couple of Notorn's there and the owner's were no where to be found to speak with them about the bikes. 1 of the bikes had a nice customized control center with the key and a "power supply" toggle switch and they were both modoifed to the lower portion of the face of the air box. Would have like to discuss further with owner about it, but he was MIA. Left there with a t-shirt and enjoyed the trip.

I have been taking the bikes apart splowly assessing the pieces as they come off and cleaning up what I can and determinining what maybe needed. I spoke with the owner today as to the "parts list" as it accumulates and he spoke of a guy near DC that he knows that has a "warehouse" of parts that we are going to go to when the list is more accurate and items are needed to go "shopping". The guys name is Chris Greenback, and he is supposed to be a Norton gurew of sorts. Did know if anyone on AN is familiar by chance.

Well here is "Big Red" as of today...I know it's a little grainy, but the camera on my phone is sensitve and the zoom on my Nikon makes the close up shots difficult, so that's the best pic I had for today.


Things are going along nicely so far. I have drained all the old oil, quite sludgey and watery, and disposed of that. Removed and cleaned the carbs and fuel lines, removed light bucket, removed rear/front wheel and replaced with much cleaner rims, removed tank/seat, remvoed and cleaned rear-sets and foot pegs, and I have cleaned up the motor/jugs/exposed aluminum covers. I have used the "EvapoRust" rust remover that was recommended and I do have to say that it works quite well for a biodegradable, non-acid, removed. It doesn't remove all the rust, but does a great job combined with a little TLC afterwards.

Now that the easy/cosmetic stuff is getting cleared away, I am now towards the motor/transmission. I have added some fresh oil so that I can see the type of movement that the engine is getting, but the one concern I have is that the kick-start is so tight, even in neutral. When the clutch is pulled in, it moves much more easily and once the clutch is let out it will allow a full cycle before "locking up" again. I have rad around for semi-similar posts and I am able to move the rear wheel in fourth gear as suggested, so I do not beleive the motor is seized. I was not sure if anyone had any thoughts or advise.

I experienced a similar type issue with my old YZ400, which had a decompression lever, so I figure(d) that the compression is what I am experiencing.

Take the plugs out and turn the back wheel while in gear. You should see piston movement to prove if it is not locked up. I keep a supply of wooden skewers around and that is one of the uses for them. Hold it loosely in the plug hole and you will see it move up and down on the piston. If it is locked up, use a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF poured down the plug holes. Give it a couple days to soak in. When you are ready to try, keep the plugs out, take the bike outside and rock it slowly in gear. When it breaks free you may get a fountain coming out of the plug holes. You may want to drape a rag over the plug holes.

sounds like your clutch plates are gummed up. You should remove the plates and clean them.

RennieK said:

sounds like your clutch plates are gummed up. You should remove the plates and clean them.

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While you are in there (primary/clutch case), have a very close look at the triplex chain, the alternator, the wire grommets, and the seals that hold the oil in and keep the water out. With any luck, it will not be a mass of rust in there, nor even a trace. But if there is any, it needs to be dealt with. Wiring all needs to be good too...