- Joined
- Dec 21, 2008
- Messages
- 170
I hope that some board member here, with accounts on other appropriate vintage motorcycle websites, will repost this warning so that someone is not defrauded while purchasing this bike ...
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I’ve been ripped off a few times on eBay, on some big ticket items, but never on a bike. But because of the sour eBay transactions I’ve encountered, and because I like Nortons, I feel compelled to post regarding a currently active auction on eBay in which I believe the seller is knowingly misrepresenting what it is, and probably not out of ignorance but in order to secure a higher sales price.
Here’s a link to the bike in question, followed by the auction Item number in case the link doesn’t work:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1972...otorcycles&hash=item35befb8dc5#ht_940wt_1168
eBay auction Item number: 230837423557
The first and most obvious thing that caught my attention when I viewed this auction is that the mufflers are not Dunstall Decibel Silencer mufflers, but likely Emgo knockoffs. They might not be made by Emgo, but they’re sure not made by Dunstall. There’s no Dunstall brand stamped on the side, and Dunstall never made mufflers with such a short section from the circumferential weld to the end, or with the rolling and slightly decreasing diameter shape that the Emgo knockoff mufflers have. The lack of the Dunstall brand stamped into the side, and the slightly different shape at the end, are the two features that make Emgo copies so easy to identify.
I did write to the seller to inform him that the bike should have Dunstall mufflers if it was all original as he’s stating, and at this time my contact to him regarding the matter has not been disclosed to prospective buyers in the auction description.
In the item description of the auction the seller claims everything is “TOTALLY ORIGINAL AND PERFECT,” which is very much not correct, due to the fact that the original Dunstall Decibel silencers are missing.
Here’s the seller’s unedited description that is currently running in the eBay auction. I’ve removed the seller’s phone number:
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1972 DUNSTALL NORTON MK 2 ,1983 MILES FROM NEW ,TOTALLY ORIGINAL AND PERFECT ,BORRANIS ,BIG BORE 76MM STROKE 89MM CAPACITY 810 CC,LIGHT ALLOY BIG BORE CYLINDER ,RE SPHERED AND MACHINING OF COMBUSTION CHAMBERS , DUAL DUNSTALL DISC BRAKES , FACTORY FAIRING ,BIKE IS AS NEW ,MUSEUM QUALITY ,EVERYTHING WORKS ,ESTATE SALE ,WE AT BUYERS EXPENSE CAN SHIP WORLDWIDE ,REASONABLE RESERVE ,SERIOUS QUESTIONS 503-xxxxxx .BIKE IS A RARE JEWEL ,BID TO WIN !!!
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There’s a bunch of other details that may indicate the bike has been apart, or is a bike assembled from various Dunstall bits. Not that either would be a bad thing, especially if it had been restored and the engine rebuilt, it’s just that that’s not how it’s being represented, and it might be worth a lot less if it was accurately described – especially if it’s not an authentic factory-produced Dunstall.
Consider the following:
I have looked at many photos of Dunstall bikes, and I’ve seen nothing from that time period (1972) that has the seat upholstered in that style, with the seat-cover pulled down and around the edge of the seat pan. I have seen photos of Atlas bikes upholstered similarly, and of course it could be possible the seat was reupholstered this way, although I have no reason to believe that is the situation here.
The headers are Dunstall headers, but all pictures I’ve seen of bikes purported to be original factory Dunstall 810 bikes had the 2-1-2 exhaust headers, and of course the Dunstall Decibel silencers. The headers on this bike are the headers Dunstall offered prior to the development of the 2-1-2 system that more commonly appeared on the 810 models. Maybe it was an option, but I doubt it, especially since there are no Dunstall mufflers and the seat also appears to be unlike the Dunstall seat I’ve seen in all other pictures of 810’s I’ve viewed (probably less than 10 bikes).
Dunstall didn’t use steel-braided oil lines on his bikes. The front brake lines are braided stainless, too.
The mirrors aren’t original Norton mirrors. I’m not sure what Dunstall used for mirrors, or if he replaced the factory ones. The mirrors on this bike are similar to a style commonly offered on eBay as replacements for Norton Commando.
The timing cover and transmission covers both appear to be held on by bolts with Allen-heads, and I don’t think Dunstall bikes came fitted like that.
The transmission inspection cover has Norton engraved on it. Again, this is probably not a Dunstall touch and is another detail indicative that this bike is something other than an original, unrestored factory Dunstall 810.
The brackets holding the mufflers to the rubber mounts are unlike any other Dunstall brackets I’ve seen.
Note the condition of the logos on the tank, and how one is more faded than the other. The photo of the right-side logo isn’t good to determine for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn to learn if the tank had been repainted around the logos; that’s what it looks like to me. The color red is particularly susceptible to fading when exposed to sunlight, so with as much difference as there is between the two tank logos, it’s possible the tank will be noticeably lighter on the right side, or should be.
The polishing of the rear wheel hub is done so well that it seems like the wheel would have to be dismantled in order to get it as uniformly shiny as it is.
And getting back to the engine, the head may or may not have Dunstall work done to it, and this seller would have no way of knowing whether it did or not, since it’s unlikely he’s the original owner, or that he’s had the engine head off. Dunstall may have marked the heads he worked on, but I can’t recall ever learning if he did or how.
And to get into the unseemly side of things, read the posts at this link to learn about another bike sale this seller was involved with. Note that it appeared originally on a different site, “Bevelheads” for Ducatis:
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=675564
And again here you’ll see someone else mention that the same seller once listed another bike (a Laverda?) as original, when in fact it was some sort of conversion. There’s mention in the threads about a Ferrari that he sold also, and that it wasn’t what it was supposed to be. So there is some history of this seller misrepresenting vehicles, both cars and bikes. And for those still reading, here’s some links for the people discussing the incident with the Laverda:
http://www.laverdaforum.com/forum/index ... ic=83268.0
http://www.laverdaforum.com/forum/index ... 68.20;wap2
And a few keywords so that search engines will find this for future persons that are considering doing business with this person:
Robert Muis, eBay, shelbob, ducati, bevelhead, laverda, Ferrari
“Robert Muis”
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I’ve been ripped off a few times on eBay, on some big ticket items, but never on a bike. But because of the sour eBay transactions I’ve encountered, and because I like Nortons, I feel compelled to post regarding a currently active auction on eBay in which I believe the seller is knowingly misrepresenting what it is, and probably not out of ignorance but in order to secure a higher sales price.
Here’s a link to the bike in question, followed by the auction Item number in case the link doesn’t work:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1972...otorcycles&hash=item35befb8dc5#ht_940wt_1168
eBay auction Item number: 230837423557
The first and most obvious thing that caught my attention when I viewed this auction is that the mufflers are not Dunstall Decibel Silencer mufflers, but likely Emgo knockoffs. They might not be made by Emgo, but they’re sure not made by Dunstall. There’s no Dunstall brand stamped on the side, and Dunstall never made mufflers with such a short section from the circumferential weld to the end, or with the rolling and slightly decreasing diameter shape that the Emgo knockoff mufflers have. The lack of the Dunstall brand stamped into the side, and the slightly different shape at the end, are the two features that make Emgo copies so easy to identify.
I did write to the seller to inform him that the bike should have Dunstall mufflers if it was all original as he’s stating, and at this time my contact to him regarding the matter has not been disclosed to prospective buyers in the auction description.
In the item description of the auction the seller claims everything is “TOTALLY ORIGINAL AND PERFECT,” which is very much not correct, due to the fact that the original Dunstall Decibel silencers are missing.
Here’s the seller’s unedited description that is currently running in the eBay auction. I’ve removed the seller’s phone number:
----------------------------------------------
1972 DUNSTALL NORTON MK 2 ,1983 MILES FROM NEW ,TOTALLY ORIGINAL AND PERFECT ,BORRANIS ,BIG BORE 76MM STROKE 89MM CAPACITY 810 CC,LIGHT ALLOY BIG BORE CYLINDER ,RE SPHERED AND MACHINING OF COMBUSTION CHAMBERS , DUAL DUNSTALL DISC BRAKES , FACTORY FAIRING ,BIKE IS AS NEW ,MUSEUM QUALITY ,EVERYTHING WORKS ,ESTATE SALE ,WE AT BUYERS EXPENSE CAN SHIP WORLDWIDE ,REASONABLE RESERVE ,SERIOUS QUESTIONS 503-xxxxxx .BIKE IS A RARE JEWEL ,BID TO WIN !!!
----------------------------------------------
There’s a bunch of other details that may indicate the bike has been apart, or is a bike assembled from various Dunstall bits. Not that either would be a bad thing, especially if it had been restored and the engine rebuilt, it’s just that that’s not how it’s being represented, and it might be worth a lot less if it was accurately described – especially if it’s not an authentic factory-produced Dunstall.
Consider the following:
I have looked at many photos of Dunstall bikes, and I’ve seen nothing from that time period (1972) that has the seat upholstered in that style, with the seat-cover pulled down and around the edge of the seat pan. I have seen photos of Atlas bikes upholstered similarly, and of course it could be possible the seat was reupholstered this way, although I have no reason to believe that is the situation here.
The headers are Dunstall headers, but all pictures I’ve seen of bikes purported to be original factory Dunstall 810 bikes had the 2-1-2 exhaust headers, and of course the Dunstall Decibel silencers. The headers on this bike are the headers Dunstall offered prior to the development of the 2-1-2 system that more commonly appeared on the 810 models. Maybe it was an option, but I doubt it, especially since there are no Dunstall mufflers and the seat also appears to be unlike the Dunstall seat I’ve seen in all other pictures of 810’s I’ve viewed (probably less than 10 bikes).
Dunstall didn’t use steel-braided oil lines on his bikes. The front brake lines are braided stainless, too.
The mirrors aren’t original Norton mirrors. I’m not sure what Dunstall used for mirrors, or if he replaced the factory ones. The mirrors on this bike are similar to a style commonly offered on eBay as replacements for Norton Commando.
The timing cover and transmission covers both appear to be held on by bolts with Allen-heads, and I don’t think Dunstall bikes came fitted like that.
The transmission inspection cover has Norton engraved on it. Again, this is probably not a Dunstall touch and is another detail indicative that this bike is something other than an original, unrestored factory Dunstall 810.
The brackets holding the mufflers to the rubber mounts are unlike any other Dunstall brackets I’ve seen.
Note the condition of the logos on the tank, and how one is more faded than the other. The photo of the right-side logo isn’t good to determine for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn to learn if the tank had been repainted around the logos; that’s what it looks like to me. The color red is particularly susceptible to fading when exposed to sunlight, so with as much difference as there is between the two tank logos, it’s possible the tank will be noticeably lighter on the right side, or should be.
The polishing of the rear wheel hub is done so well that it seems like the wheel would have to be dismantled in order to get it as uniformly shiny as it is.
And getting back to the engine, the head may or may not have Dunstall work done to it, and this seller would have no way of knowing whether it did or not, since it’s unlikely he’s the original owner, or that he’s had the engine head off. Dunstall may have marked the heads he worked on, but I can’t recall ever learning if he did or how.
And to get into the unseemly side of things, read the posts at this link to learn about another bike sale this seller was involved with. Note that it appeared originally on a different site, “Bevelheads” for Ducatis:
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=675564
And again here you’ll see someone else mention that the same seller once listed another bike (a Laverda?) as original, when in fact it was some sort of conversion. There’s mention in the threads about a Ferrari that he sold also, and that it wasn’t what it was supposed to be. So there is some history of this seller misrepresenting vehicles, both cars and bikes. And for those still reading, here’s some links for the people discussing the incident with the Laverda:
http://www.laverdaforum.com/forum/index ... ic=83268.0
http://www.laverdaforum.com/forum/index ... 68.20;wap2
And a few keywords so that search engines will find this for future persons that are considering doing business with this person:
Robert Muis, eBay, shelbob, ducati, bevelhead, laverda, Ferrari
“Robert Muis”
