Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank liner...

Devoted some more time today searching for the elusive product to use in a fiberglass tank. After narrowing, came across this test study by a University of Maine group of graduate students. I found it to be WELL worth the LONG READ, even though it dealt with a snowmobile. Same known problems: the fiberglass tank. A well used, well thought of brand name (mega-times mentioned here on this site), and it's high failure rate, might startle you. As for the other product, which seemed to have worked perfectly, and even mixes far easier in a tank such as ours...

Anyway, it is a long read, well worth it. For those of you who actually DO read it in it's entirety... this is EP85 fuel, not our weaker EP10. Overkill, for sure, but if it holds up to 85% ethanol...

http://www.umaine.edu/MechEng/Peterson/ ... report.pdf

Thoughts?????????

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Not surprising about the caswell, but who is going to try the northern tank liner on a tank and report back?

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Not me, I already tried every tank liner I could get several years ago. I have not tried Northern but I doubt that they have any secret chemicals that haven't been used before. All of them failed sooner or later. Jim

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

If someone will send me a F/G tank, I'll do it and try it out. Not willing to try my original though.

Dave
69S

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Great report. Thanks for posting it. I have an unused Norvil Production Racer (fiberglass) tank that I'm someday going to have to deal with (or sell, and someone else can deal with it). Other than that, I'm sticking to metal tanks. Guess I'll have to learn how to use that Harbor Freight English wheel someday.

Ken

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Caswell Novalac has good chemical specs, so hope the students goofed in their application. Me and a friend are testing the Caswell but for sure we did not just coat the outside and made very sure there was a thick layer over entire insides, which takes most an hour of constant tank turning once excess drooled out. Also we used acetone wash inside to remove fouling chemicals and partially dissolve the original resin for some etching/bite surface then heated air dried acetone out till nil smell before the actual coating. I just did one thick layer, my friend two thick layers. This weekend will mix up remainder of Caswell and apply to test on objects including fiber glass pieces. I put a survey question out on list that indroduced me to Caswell 7 yr ago to see if any failures known. Will let ya know what comes back.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

From what they wrote, it looks like they did a good job. I don't know how Caswell looks, so it could be in the application of the product, they missed a spot. They mention using the product as per manufacturer's instructions which is to slosh it around rather than paint it on which would insure a better coverage I would think. The Northern tank liner did not fail most likely because it flowed better and covered all the insides by sloshing the stuff in the tank.

At any rate it was an interesting read and showed that many components of the fuel system were attacked by this swill, not only fiberglass tanks. It is also interesting to note that more fuel is used to go the same distance when ethanol is mixed with gas. Now let's see what has come of using ethanol:

1- food prices went up
2- worse gas mileage
3- degradation of fuel system components

Anyone can chime in with positive points :?:

Jean

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Jeandr said:

1- food prices went up
2- worse gas mileage
3- degradation of fuel system components

Anyone can chime in with positive points :?:

Jean

Click to expand...

Eh, Any corn farmers here?
I imagine they would be very happy!

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

hobot said:

Caswell Novalac has good chemical specs, so hope the students goofed in their application. Me and a friend are testing the Caswell but for sure we did not just coat the outside and made very sure there was a thick layer over entire insides, which takes most an hour of constant tank turning once excess drooled out. Also we used acetone wash inside to remove fouling chemicals and partially dissolve the original resin for some etching/bite surface then heated air dried acetone out till nil smell before the actual coating. I just did one thick layer, my friend two thick layers. This weekend will mix up remainder of Caswell and apply to test on objects including fiber glass pieces. I put a survey question out on list that indroduced me to Caswell 7 yr ago to see if any failures known. Will let ya know what comes back.

Click to expand...

Novalac epoxy is indeed resistant to a wide range of chemicals, but using it as a tank sealer in unmodified form is a bit like using soft solder rather than weld/braze to build a motorcycle frame!

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Gary said:

Devoted some more time today searching for the elusive product to use in a fiberglass tank. After narrowing, came across this test study by a University of Maine group of graduate students. I found it to be WELL worth the LONG READ, even though it dealt with a snowmobile. Same known problems: the fiberglass tank. A well used, well thought of brand name (mega-times mentioned here on this site), and it's high failure rate, might startle you. As for the other product, which seemed to have worked perfectly, and even mixes far easier in a tank such as ours...

Anyway, it is a long read, well worth it. For those of you who actually DO read it in it's entirety... this is EP85 fuel, not our weaker EP10. Overkill, for sure, but if it holds up to 85% ethanol...

http://www.umaine.edu/MechEng/Peterson/ ... report.pdf

Thoughts?????????

Click to expand...

Seems peculiar that anyone would manufacture a fuel tank from scratch, not bothering to use the proper materials to make it, and then have to rely on ridiculous snake oils to prevent failure? Using the correct materials and production methods, composite fuel tanks can be manufactured which are fully resistant to all commonly available fuels.

However there seems to be a very worrying almost complete lack of understanding of how to go about making chemically resistant composite fuel tanks for vehicle use, even though such tanks have been used industrially for decades! A good example of this are the UST (underground storage tanks) in use at many filling stations, whose failure would obviously be disastrous.

The use of E85 as a control for fuel tank sealer testing though is a very good idea, as the effects of this over a relatively short period is likely to replicate the result of using E10/15 over a much longer time. Most relevant test of tank sealing product is likely to be a peel test, where the adhesion of test coupons bonded together using the sealing product, is accurately measured after extended periods of immersion in the control substance.

Concerning the failure of Caswell products (which I would imagine is a watered down industrial epoxy), there is a detailed article on the net relating to a home built small boat, the owner of which had problems with the composite lined tanks he had installed.

This page covers the result of relying on a watered down snake oil in real world application: http://egyptian.net/~raymacke/Cbnskif36.htm

In terms of profit, if producers of tank "sealers" are commonly diluting resins used by say 50%, and bearing in mind they are already marking up about 400% on the cost of the unadulterated resins, then diluting 50% means almost 800% mark up, which makes good business sense, but not much use to anyone trying to seal a leaky tank!

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Carbonfibre said:

In terms of profit, if producers of tank "sealers" are commonly diluting resins used by say 50%, and bearing in mind they are already marking up about 400% on the cost of the unadulterated resins, then diluting 50% means almost 800% mark up, which makes good business sense, but not much use to anyone trying to seal a leaky tank!

Click to expand...

Yes, but when the manufacturers and people buying and using the stuff keep believing the excuse that that interior wasn't covered sufficiently by the user, the manufacturer of the junk (tank liner) still wins their greedy profit. As a side note, I covered one tank in my life with kreem, ten years ago, in a steel tank as a remedy to prevent rust or corrosion from running through the fuel system because that's what a lot of people were doing and the stuff is still in tact and hasn't dissolved or peeled away, go figure.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Over a period of time oxides form on the interior surfaces of a tank, and this is the main reason why a completely useless product like "Kreem" is not likely to fail until the said oxides have been scoured away by alcohol bearing fuels. The longer an unsuitable product has been in use, the longer its likely to last, as in some cases the oxide film forms a very effective barrier against ethanol attack.

Until such time as those manufacturing so called tank "sealing" products are able to provide independent test results of their products in both lab and real world conditions, all should be regarded with suspicion. Up until the time of workable products becoming available, anyone wanting to seal a GRP tank should use a undiluted industrial product, with added binder agent to increase durability, and make it more suitable for use as a slosh coat sealer.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

regardless the whole test is flawed because they made their own tank. They state they did not choose a metal tank because no one had the proper skills to make one. Who's to say if they are properly skilled to make a composite tank? Then they only use one type of the 3 considered. They could have easily bought 3 real tanks that are used in actual road use on ebay/junk yard/swap meet to introduce proper variables.

They are using their head, and definitely put some work into it, but it's not a very good experiment...

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

They clearly do not have the knowledge required to make a chemically resistant fuel tank, but anyone with a properly made composite tank is not likely to need snake oil sealers anyway, so the fact the sealer failed when used to protect a non chemically resistant tank, seems to be very highly relevant to anyone wanting to do the same thing.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

despite what carbonfobre thinks, says or how negatively he conveys his thoughts, the fact remains the "completely useless" product I used (kreem) has lasted for ten years, a pretty fair amount of time for a worthless product to last in such a harsh environment. I wasn't defending tanks liners or promoting their use, but pointing out the fact that the one time I used a tank liner product it was successful and remains intact today.

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

I take it that the GRP tank you have sealed was causing problems when you sealed it? As to effectiveness or otherwise of the "Kreem" tank sealer, a search on Google will provide quite a good idea of how well it works.

As to "negative" thoughts I wonder if I am alone in feeling that shysters selling products that dont work to seemingly gullible buyers, is in fact a cause for concern?

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Obviously you only read what you want of others posts to justify your negative comments. :roll:

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

If a widely discredited sealer has worked on your tank then thats fine. The fact that not one of those selling these products is able to provide any results of any sort of independent testing, does seem to say a lot for the amount of faith the sellers have in their products though!

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

I think that ethanol is on the way out. It's losing steam politically and sooner or later the corn producers will be able to wring more money out of the market as food. Gas mileage, horsepower, and tunability will go back to the good old days. But you'll still be stuck with a fiberglass tank, which in engineering terms would be right up there with putting fiberglass gas tanks in a Pinto. Stimulate the economy for a craftsman someplace and buy a steel or alloy tank. The value of your bike goes up accordingly and you won't have Nat King Cole singing in the back of your mind, "Chestnuts Roasting on a Open Fire".

Re: Astounding read! University test of fiberglass tank line

Currently they are working on a replacement for ethanol.........doesnt damage fuel system parts, but I guess it may well mean fuel prices increase, which to all intents and purposes was the reason for ethanol in the first place.