Are Boyers really that bad? (2015)

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It was contact breakers that set all the Commando records of speed and endurance contests in that era so just because someone notices more power with electronic ign mainly implies the new curve fit the engine needs better than the replaced ign of what ever type. I know for sure points can power a dragster engine like my P!! over 9000 w/o a hick up and that cheap anaolog boyah over 11,000 dam it. Dual coil points allow coils to charge higher longer than dual fire-wasted spark coil packs. Dang AAU does allow drifting of full adv timing and wears till won't retard and don't make em no more so electronic is logical substitute but would be difficult to top points for power.
 
As explained, EI does top points for power at top, the curve is irrelevant at that rpm. If you look at what is happening with points bouncing around when the engine is doing high rpm, it is quite ugly and uncontrolled which results in an inconsistent spark. As things wear it gets worse. Lower down on the rpm range points work well and when set up correctly are excellent for starting, however for ultimate power you will not see many, if any racers installing breaker point type ignition systems today.

Glen
 
Glen we need to learn what ignitions the record setting Commando had like say Hogslayer or Woods and Axtell and Williams wonders. I can tell ya that factory valve train looses control before factory points do. A G force bar mounted gizmo could reveal if any electronic power advantage in the limited rpm our cranks and bore friction tolerate. I'd say its a close toss up max power wise so main electro advantage is low maintaince and some of them programable curve + setting of rev limiter. Some of Peel stunts need to be done with engine pegged on limiter so still mystery on how powerarc limits rpm.
 
worntorn said:
...Similarly, old time Westwood racer and tuner Dave Wildman switched his Triumph Triple sidecar racer from points to Boyer ignition back in the early 80s. He did this as an experiment, more to prove to those hyping the new Boyer ignition that points were best, as was his belief at the time. With the Boyer installed, he found an immediate gain of 500 rpm in top on the main straight. Since Dave was always battling with the same two or three other racers for first, the 500 rpm advantage was huge, so the points never went back in. Dave won a lot of races with that setup.

A bit about Dave Wildman for those interested:

http://canmoto.ca/dave-wildman-class-of-2010/

Glen
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Glen, OT, but I would have watched Dave race there back in the 70's. You may have known, or know, Murray Neibel who raced there as well back in the 60's. I bought one of the first Suzuki GS750s from Murray's Modern Motorcycling on Commercial back in early 77 and club raced it at Wetwood until I moved away a couple of years later.
 
Hi Alan. Yes, I know Murray well, he is a friend and Vincent clubmate. He has quite a collection including two Manxes and a 7r, plus numerous perfectly restored Triumphs, Nortons etc, none of which see use these days.
In Westwood days Murray was all but unbeatable in the 250cc class on his Suzuki X6.
Last we talked he was restoring his dream road bike - a 1975 Norton Commando MK3 of course! That one is will see lots of use.

Glen
 
Well I have used them all points, EIs (lucas and Boyar) Trispark or Pazons wasn't around when I installed my Boyar back in 1979 my first Boyar failed a week after I had my major fire in 1980 but was replaced with a new one that lasted 34 years, but now running the new Joe Hunt maggie which has been on my Norton for just over 5 years now and would never go back to the EI, my Norton has not started for 6 months as I was doing some mods on it but yesturday with new fuel she started first kick (without a battery) went for a good ride, when I was going home the bike was misfiring down low, wasn't the Maggie but a sticking float in one of the PWKs carbies, it was dripping fuel out of the overflow cube, like I have said heaps of times here, these new Joe Hunt work so well and I haven't touched it in the 5 years so far, the Norton starts first kick every time, but I never had any problems with the Boyar (but they don't like flames from a fire :oops: ) the wires never broke from the pickup or from the hole in the timing cover, I put extra rubber over the wires, so 34 years with the same Boyar and its still going on my mates Norton, how many others would last that long :?:

Ashley
 
gripper said:
I think original AAU will be fully advanced by less than 2000rpm and I've seen two different sizes of springs. I'm planning on bushing the points cam to eliminate fifteen thou of slack and giving it another go after over 35 years with my boyer just to see if I made the right decision all those years ago.
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The problem goes beyond the shaft OD/cam ID clearance, the bob weights stick. The slot, the inside of each bob weight, wears at its full advanced position to the point that a notch or depression develops on the inside of the bob weights and then the two bob weights stick in their fully open/cam fully advanced position when you come to a stop. The springs can't pull the weights over the notches worn by the posts.

Long ago I was told that Lucas didn't get the metals right, if they had specified the right combination of dissimilar metals, then the wear wouldn't be as severe. I've also been told, however, that the same AAU does not suffer from the notching on other British bikes and that it also has to do with Norton's timing chain, with chain snatch causing backward and forward impulses that wreak havoc on the AAU's posts/bob weights.

If you want to fix the AAU, hard chrome the inside of the bob weights. Worked for me on my '71, lasted until I sold it. The chroming also tightened up the shaft OD/cam ID clearances.
 
Two more AAU faults mine came with or developed- the springs wear grooves on their post which gives spring slack just when they should finish pull to full retard and the posts can fratique fracture off. So get em while they're young eh.
 
Regular greasings as explained in the manual. Pull the outer plate and get to work. Reassemble , Retime.
 
There is probably benefit to be had by moving to a programmable unit, but how many of us try changing the needles in our carbs to different tapers to see if acceleration performance improves ? In the end, best power depends on an optimised combination of fuel mixture, compression ratio and ignition advance. Because I use methanol, I have not bothered. The power loss is much less than with petrol if the combination is slightly wrong. Most of the benefit of using methanol fuel is that it hides up the tuning errors, so gives more power.
 
On the original topic- Over my first 5 or 10 years into Britbikes, I became firmly convinced that Boyers were indeed bad, based on my personal experience with several dozen failed Boyers. Since that time, after studying the topic on many Britbike, cafe racer, and classic bike forums, and after learning about the history of availability of OTHER brand electronic ignitions and THEIR failure rates (somewhat anecdotal, based on the limited number of online members reporting failures), I reached an opinion-altering conclusion:

Boyers were the ONLY generally available ready replacement EI for classic Britbikes for quite a few years; therefor, any failures would be the ONLY failures that could be experienced and/or reported. The fact that I had acquired bikes with failed ignitions may have had more to do with previous owners connecting batteries reverse polarity than anything else.

I've conducted surveys on a couple of forums; with several other brands entering the market a dozen or so years ago, it is becoming clear that the number of reported failures as compared to the number of installed units, points to Boyers actually being RELATIVELY less prone to failure (although NONE are immune from reverse polarity damage if wired wrong).

Here on this forum, there was an excellent in-depth comparison done to compare the advance curves of several brands of EIs as well as stock AAU/points. Very nice to see the differences in starting/idle maps, and advance curves through the rev range.

Not too long ago, the "conventional wisdom" was that Tri-Spark were THE superior EI (although a bit spendy). Lately, more and more reports have been coming in regarding failed TriSpark units; thankfully, follow-up reports are generally very positive as relates to warranty replacement (similar to follow-up reports of Boyers).

So, all told, I think the answer to the original question is "NO".
 
Interesting comment about fitting the battery the wrong way around. My Boyer has a red lead and a white lead which connect to the battery. From memory the red lead is the positive and the white on is the negative, but I cannot be certain. I leave the battery out for long periods and when I refit it, I rely on the lengths of the leads to get it the right way around. I've often wondered whether getting it wrong would kill the Boyer. I think I will try to get a wiring diagram to make sure I get it right.
 
We all had used Boyer for years in the 80's, when the AAU spares were out of stock , and we were happy with them, but we were young and less grumpy than now, and plus we know nothing, but we rode the bikes..................! now we know a lot of things about Norton , there are plenty of EI, we have internet and ..........!
 
Points are fine when new and freshly set and timed. Performance deteriorates as the contacts burn, the spring posts wear, the followers wear, the AAU sticks or whatever. Boyers (like most EIs) are either go or no-go.
 
acotrel said:
Interesting comment about fitting the battery the wrong way around. My Boyer has a red lead and a white lead which connect to the battery. From memory the red lead is the positive and the white on is the negative, but I cannot be certain. I leave the battery out for long periods and when I refit it, I rely on the lengths of the leads to get it the right way around. I've often wondered whether getting it wrong would kill the Boyer. I think I will try to get a wiring diagram to make sure I get it right.
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If you remove the battery that often, why not put a proper connector on it so you can't get it wrong?
 
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pommie john said:
If you remove the battery that often, why not put a proper connector on it so you can't get it wrong?
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I have thought of that. However if I fit a connector to the battery and my bike, and a similar connector to my battery charger, doesn't that introduce four more ways of getting it wrong ? Which ever way I go, the problem is similar, but fitting a connecter would only mean I'd risk getting it wrong once. But once would be enough to kill the Boyer. . I looked at the bike yesterday and if the battery is in the carrier so the terminals can be attached, the red lead is where the positive terminal is on the battery. But at a stretch the white lead could be fitted there.
My main problem is that I don't use the bike often enough. The last time I took it to a practise day, everything that could go wrong, did go wrong - except I did not kill the motor. It has a lot to do with my age - I never had this sort of problem when I was young. Everything was easy then.
 
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