(Another) elusive electrical problem...

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Hi All,

After about 3 months now I've gotten my new-to-me '71 Commando on the road. In TEst Ride #1 it ran like a champ. Seeps a bit of oil from everywhere but one thing at a time.

After some minor tweeks I put her away for the night. On test ride #2 the bike made it about 6-8 miles from home, about 15' at mixed throttle with no lights on, before blowing the fuse. It was a 30A rather then the 35A called for. I replaced it by the side of the road and the new one blew immediately. I don't recall if I had turned on the key switch or not.

Trucked it home ans started searching for a short. REMOVED the key switch, disconnected the Tympanium Reg/Rec., checked carefully in the headlight shell systematically disconnecting & re-connecting everything... but never found a problem. Fired it up with a new fuse and found no problem except that my %^&* VOM said I was getting 18V to the battery at 3500 RPM. I replaced the regulator (for $70) and the meter said the new one was doing the same thing so I borrowed a quality meter and found the new unit putting out an appropriate 14.2 V± at the battery. Wiggled all the wires and harness segments and tried all the switches but I could find no short.

The odd thing that I can't account for is this: If I put the volt meter in line where the fuse goes, it reads about 4.2V with everything off (and the key switch actually removed). The only thing that cuts it to 0V is disconnecting the Tympanium Requlator/Rectifier. Even odder is that the battery doesn't seem to drain down under that load even after a week.

With everything re-assembled (and leaving the new Tympanium in place) I went on Test ride #3. In about 15' of mixed riding with and without headlight over about 12 miles, everything ran fine and at the end the fuse was cool.

Thus ended the weekend. I am turning to your collective wisdom for guidance or at least a solid guess. Dare I leave the neighborhood? Is there an obvious place or method I've missed?

TIA and I look forward to seeing you on the road.

-Danny
 
GTCarlos said:
It was a 30A rather then the 35A called for.

Are you aware that refers to blow amps?
The "35A fuse" specified in manuals and handbooks is the blow rating so has a continuous rating of 17A. Any non-Lucas fuse available nowadays (blade etc.) is likely to be continuous rated so blows at double the marked amp rating, therefore the nearest equivalent continuous fuse will be either 15A (30A blow) or 20A (40A blow).

http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/nen ... 20BUSS.pdf

SOME Lucas type fuses are marked with both ratings:
(Another) elusive electrical problem...
 
Hi, welcome.

A few clarifications needed.
"Inline" voltage... Do you mean probing the fuse holder? Other lead to ground?

I've never seen any DMM, even cheap junk, read that far off. Sure you weren't reading AC volts by accident?

Intermittent shorts can be elusive. Carry a small DMM, be prepared to troubleshoot " in situ".
Look at brake switches, taillight wires, and ALL wiring where it could touch metal.
 
concours said:
I've never seen any DMM, even cheap junk, read that far off. Sure you weren't reading AC volts by accident?

I've got a really cheap DMM that reads almost 17V on my Commando when the engine is running. I'm not sure at what price point they start to get accurate as the other meter I have, which reads accurately, is a Fluke which was quite expensive.

Ian
 
Even the cheapo Harbor Freight meters are very close. I compared mine to 2-3 calibrated Fluke meters and it was right on the money. 14.2 V is not that unreasonable for a charging voltage.

Russ
 
The odd thing that I can't account for is this: If I put the volt meter in line where the fuse goes, it reads about 4.2V with everything off (and the key switch actually removed). The only thing that cuts it to 0V is disconnecting the Tympanium Requlator/Rectifier. Even odder is that the battery doesn't seem to drain down under that load even after a week.
Is the "blue can" 2MC capacitor still in the circuit? I replaced the glass fuse with blade fuse off the positive side. Whenever I insert the fuse I get a small spark that I believe is a result of the capacitor in the circuit. I do not get the spark on my Triumph with the same fuse arrangement and no capacitor.
 
FWIW a very handy trick to help track down a short and save lots of fuses is to temporarily wire a 12V bulb in place of the main fuse, if there is a dead short it will glow brightly and limit current....i.e. a 21W bulb will conduct about 2 amps max, a 55W about 4 amps, etc. Wiring a DMM ammeter in place of the fuse is generally NOT a good idea, they are typically rated for 10 amps max and if you exceed that you can damage the DMM and/or blow an expensive and hard to find internal fuse. The temporary bulb test is for the shop only, not for riding, running the engine, etc., since the bulb will drop voltage but can be very handy for troubleshooting in some cases.
 
L.A.B. said:
GTCarlos said:
It was a 30A rather then the 35A called for.

Are you aware that refers to blow amps?
The "35A fuse" specified in manuals and handbooks is the blow rating so has a continuous rating of 17A. Any non-Lucas fuse available nowadays (blade etc.) is likely to be continuous rated so blows at double the marked amp rating, therefore the nearest equivalent continuous fuse will be either 15A (30A blow) or 20A (40A blow).

http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/nen ... 20BUSS.pdf

SOME Lucas type fuses are marked with both ratings:
(Another) elusive electrical problem...

Please explain further about the 30 AMP fuse. I have a 71 as well and have been using a 30AMP with no troubles.
I am using a US 30 AMP for the last 2 years with no problems. Is this the correct fuse?
Thanks MikeM
 
MikeM said:
L.A.B. said:
GTCarlos said:
It was a 30A rather then the 35A called for.

Are you aware that refers to blow amps?
The "35A fuse" specified in manuals and handbooks is the blow rating so has a continuous rating of 17A. Any non-Lucas fuse available nowadays (blade etc.) is likely to be continuous rated so blows at double the marked amp rating, therefore the nearest equivalent continuous fuse will be either 15A (30A blow) or 20A (40A blow).

http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/nen ... 20BUSS.pdf

SOME Lucas type fuses are marked with both ratings:
(Another) elusive electrical problem...

Please explain further about the 30 AMP fuse. I have a 71 as well and have been using a 30AMP with no troubles.
I am using a US 30 AMP for the last 2 years with no problems. Is this the correct fuse?
Thanks MikeM

Best way I can describe it is it is like a "slow blow fuse" it will take a surge of 30 amps. You should be using a 15-17 amp regular fuse as a replacement.
Pete
 
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the ideas. A few I tried earlier and a few others I will try shortly. I'll let you know what, if anything, I find. Specifically...

Having had a long relationship with Triumphs, MGs and a Jag or two I suspected the Lucas switch first off. All the measurements I did were with the switch removed from the system completely. As an aside, the switch itself seems to check out fine.

L.A.B., Thanks for the REALLY interesting comments about fuse ratings! That makes a lot more sense than a system like that running a 35A fuse. The bike gets an AGC 15 before the next start, but since it blew two 30A fuses I will carry spares.

The 4.2V I measured on the hot lead (-) was IN LINE i.e. yes, probing the fuse holder itself. I replaced the fuse with my meter. It was NOT Hot measured to ground. I'm not particularly good with electrics but that draw didn't make sense to me. I hope it's a useful clue.

Bluto, Thanks for the trick with the light bulb. I'll tinker with it and see what I learn.

Ommief, the BLUE CAN sounds well worth investigation. I haven't noticed a capacitor, blue or otherwiseanywhere. If it IS still in the system where should it be mounted and how big is it? (And what's it there for)? My second attack (after removing the key switch) was to disconnect the Zener diode, when I discovered there no longer was one. Replaced with the Tympanium before my tenure. Ah, getting to know the new toy!

I must have been particularly un-lucky with my meter, now in the land fill. It was a cheepo from Harbor Freight. I HATE cheap tools but still seem to be seduced into buying them now and then. I checked it on a known-good system getting similar garbage for results before trashing it. I also cross referenced the borrowed Big-Buck Fluke on both bikes getting consistent and expected readings so I trust that the 14,2V charge rate at 3200 RPM is real.

So thanks again for your thoughts. Keep those cards and letters coming. I'll be back in the garage Fri. night.

Regards.

-Danny
 
MikeM said:
Please explain further about the 30 AMP fuse. I have a 71 as well and have been using a 30AMP with no troubles.
I am using a US 30 AMP for the last 2 years with no problems. Is this the correct fuse?

If a 30A continuous fuse is used in place of the 35A blow fuse then it is nearly twice the intended amp rating and won't blow until 60A which is far too high to protect the wiring.

GTCarlos said:
the BLUE CAN sounds well worth investigation. I haven't noticed a capacitor, blue or otherwiseanywhere. If it IS still in the system where should it be mounted and how big is it? (And what's it there for)?

The blue can (2MC) is roughly two inches tall and suspended by a spring.
If fitted, it is usually close to the battery, and is there to assist starting if the battery becomes discharged, and also allows the engine to be started without a battery (see manual, section J24, however it may not always do this if an electronic ignition is fitted):

http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Repai ... mmando.pdf

CHARGER said:
 
"The 4.2V I measured on the hot lead (-) was IN LINE i.e. yes, probing the fuse holder itself. I replaced the fuse with my meter. It was NOT Hot measured to ground. I'm not particularly good with electrics but that draw didn't make sense to me. I hope it's a useful clue. "

Ok Danny, repeat this same test with your DMM set to "DC AMPS", if reading is zero, set your range to "milliamps", retest.
If there is significant current draw, we can search for the cause by unplugging things.
 
I had a situation where I fired the bike up and it was ticking over beautifully (a miracle!) and then it just stalled. Found the main fuse was blown but every time I replaced it the fuse blew instantly. A passer by who had a Commando suggested disconnecting the blue can (capacitor) and voila, bike started, it ran beautifully again. When I examined the capacitor there was a small hole in it, burned from the inside out.

I replaced the capacitor and several years later the bike stalled while out on a ride and it eventually became apparent that on the new capacitor one spade terminal was almost corroded off, once again disconnecting it got the bike going again.

Since then I've carried a capacitor but not bothered to connect it; they are more trouble than they are worth!!

So, disconnect it, and see what happens is my advice.
 
I had a situation where my bike ran fine on the center stand, but as soon as I dropped it down it would stall. I pulled the tank and started the engine. I was fortunate that it was just getting dark and the garage lights were off. When the bike came off the stand I noticed a small spark in the wire harness. The main feed to the front of the bike was chaffed and grounded to the frame.
Pete
 
L.A.B. said:
MikeM said:
Please explain further about the 30 AMP fuse. I have a 71 as well and have been using a 30AMP with no troubles.
I am using a US 30 AMP for the last 2 years with no problems. Is this the correct fuse?

If a 30A continuous fuse is used in place of the 35A blow fuse then it is nearly twice the intended amp rating and won't blow until 60A which is far too high to protect the wiring.

Fast Blow Fuses: would be ideal in regulated DC voltage circuits. Where there will be little or no fluctuation will ever be seen. Computers, Home electronics etc.
Slow Blow Fuses: are a little more robust in that and can handle electrical surges regularly associated with un-regulated circuits. Like Automotive electronics or AC circuits.

The difference is that a slow blow fuse has time lag characteristics that allow it to handle surges commonly found in automotive circuits (like lights, the windings of an electric cooling fan motor) as accessories are turned on and off. While a slow blow can withstand strong surges that would fry a fast blow fuse – it can also blow quickly in short circuit conditions.

“These fuses are designed for circuits in equipment having high inductive or capacitive surges, or heavy starting currents such as magnets, solenoids, motors, lamp circuits, etc.”

A 20 amp USA rated fuse will carry 20 amps continuously & blow at 35 amps in a short time. A 17/35 amp Lucas fuse will carry 17 amps continuously & blow at 35 amps in a short time. The 20 amp US fuse is pretty much equivalent to the 17/25 amp Lucas fuse. Just different rating systems.

A 20 amp USA fuse will blow in about:
100 seconds at 27 amps
10 seconds at 30 amps
1 second at 40 amps
 
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