A tale of two heads and one barrel. To spigot or not to spigot?

If you search around hard enough, you can find a shop that can nickel plate a cylinder and return it to an original bore, or to a standard overbore. A plus for this approach is ..... the cylinder will go a million miles before needing attention again.
One such shop (example - not an endorsement):

Slick

texasSlick said:

If you search around hard enough, you can find a shop that can nickel plate a cylinder and return it to an original bore, or to a standard overbore. A plus for this approach is ..... the cylinder will go a million miles before needing attention again.
One such shop (example - not an endorsement):

NiCom Powersports Cylinder Services | U.S. Chrome of Wisconsin

For all powersports cylinder services including plating, boring, and diamond honing. We also offer a cylinder exchange program.

www.usnicom.com

Slick

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Yes that might be the ticket, I like!

gpzkat said:

Yes that might be the ticket, I like!

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Please keep us posted. I've got some hard to come by cylinders that could use this treatment.

.040 over did the trick, they will machine off the spigots and level vs the bottom end next (today probably). I found some .040 over OEM low compression concave pistons just like the standard bore size ones that I have. They are complete with rings, pins, and clips. I am hopeful this all works out, time will tell. Price was right and I am fine with low compression/OEM solution, as far as I know at least. I cleaned up the originals, so they are available as is the spare cylinder head if anyone is interested in buy/trade.

The head looks good but needs guides and of course checking. I am researching on what to use. I have two OEM exhaust ones that feel snug compared to existing, but who knows, need measuring not by feel. They were only $10 so if not, no big deal. I think the intakes can use a rubber oil seal, and may be worthwhile but still reading up.

In the meantime I am restoring a '69 Airstream interior which is taking a lot of my time. Here are a couple of pics of the head and pistons. The exhaust threads are bad on one side of the head, will require repair.

possm said:

According to my Roy Bacon Norton Restoration book the spigots were deleted for the 1966 model year from s/n 114870 so as your N15 is a '66 it did not have spigots, also be aware that from engine # 125871 the valves were lengthened and the pushrods shortened by I believe .100" so do not replace your valves with Commando Items!

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So according to Bacon, it is safe to consider all 650 engines made after this SN did not have spigots?

Aside from this, the only way to tell for sure would be to remove the head?

Well I got the barrels back, .040 did the trick to remove all corrosion. I found NOS .040 over pistons/rings on eBay so it'll remain a low comp motor. Q&E in Anaheim CA did the work and quite reasonably, but slowly as they are slammed. I found some NOS valve guides and they put those in and did valve job as well. The crank is being reground (Marine Crankshaft in Santa Ana CA as recommended by Q&E) but that's going to take a long time too, possibly till March.

Time to make an engine stand.

I have researched and put together a very long list of parts to rebuild this bike, so I'll be giving Waldridge a lot of my money soon. So much for a 'cheap' $150 bike, or more accurately pile of parts

gpzkat said:

Yeah that's right, I have two heads but the much better one which needs no repair is non-spigoted. I want to shave the spigots off my cylinder to match it.

As for using a sleeve, stay away is the consensus.

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that's only because new kids have taken over

74ok said:

that's only because new kids have taken over

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The consensus or the machine shops? One perhaps begets the other.

t ingermanson said:

The consensus or the machine shops? One perhaps begets the other.

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Geezers gone, moved on etc before this site, spoke for going there being viable. Can't find that stuff anymore, or not easy to get more details.

Diff deal for new folks today who have however taken the engines to another level, dissecting them inside & out etc. I can find the last thread on it if interested.

Outa curiosity, I called a local shop for an estimate, without any discussion of whether a viable way to go or done a norton before etc. I was a bit surprised labour alone was 500 bux here plus tax. Prob not easy to find someone local with Norton experience for most, then shipping..

Prob easier & cheaper to find a good used one to start with

Bernhard said:

Re; spigot barrel. Don't shave spigot off- the reason the spigot prevents the liners dropping down onto the crank , don't ask me how I know!!!

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The original barrel has no liner, thus removal of the spigot is no problem. It has been done many times.

- Knut

gpzkat said:

My '66 N15CS came with two sets of barrels and heads:

One pair is spigoted that I think may be the originals. Barrels are OK overall but need re-bore due to rust, .020 may do it as it's not bad. It's cylinder head has one exhaust port with badly stripped threads though. It is PN 23166

The other pair is a shattered barrel (junk) and nice head, no damage to it, very clean, it is PN 25319.

I'd like to avoid thread repair and also stripping the spigoted head, as it's painted black. The later head is really clean. Other than the spigot they look very similar.

Q1: If I have the spigots shaved off the usable barrels (that I get overbored), will it be a match made in heaven with the later head?

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Yes, definately, but you need to obtain two spigot infill rings as supplied by the factory. I don't have the p/n at hand, sorry. Norvil or Fair Spares may help out.

- Knut

Rohan said:

Thin walled sleeves are very common in the automotive world - well proven technology.
Yes, even in 16H Nortons and myriads of dommies !!

So why then are Anthony Curzon and Peter White of the NOC mentioning they have had more than a few engines (750 Norton engines) done with this ? And even recommending folks to do it.

Just because you have doubts doesn't mean it can't be done, successfully, by skilled operators.
LA Sleeve have sold gazillions of sleeves for all types of engines.
Search here and see how many folks mention them...

mdt-son said:

Yes, definately, but you need to obtain two spigot infill rings as supplied by the factory. I don't have the p/n at hand, sorry. Norvil or Fair Spares may help out.

- Knut

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May be those ??

mdt-son said:

Yes, definately, but you need to obtain two spigot infill rings as supplied by the factory. I don't have the p/n at hand, sorry. Norvil or Fair Spares may help out.

- Knut

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My choice was:

1) Leave spigots in place and repair the exhaust thread damage on my earlier spigot type cylinder head.
2) Shave off the spigots and use the non spigot head which has no thread damage.

It was cheaper to mill the spigot off than repair those threads as far as I could tell. Another factor was that the newer head seemed to be in better shape overall and was not painted black which would be a pain to remove.

The question of liners was sort of tangential and not that important to me, except for the fact that my 'good' (vs shattered non spigoted) cylinder barrel had a rusty bore and I wasn't sure if .040, (which I believe is generally considered a safe bore, whereas .060 seems contrroversial) would clean it up. So it spawned that conversation. .040 did it and I don't need any infill rings as far as I can tell, as I'm basically mating up a newly non-spigoted head to a non-spigot type barrel.

Here are pics - early Atlas 23166 with spigot provision and late Atlas 25319 without





If anyone is interested in the early Atlas head which needs repair to the exhaust thread, PM me.

texasSlick said:

If you search around hard enough, you can find a shop that can nickel plate a cylinder and return it to an original bore, or to a standard overbore. A plus for this approach is ..... the cylinder will go a million miles before needing attention again.
One such shop (example - not an endorsement):

NiCom Powersports Cylinder Services | U.S. Chrome of Wisconsin

For all powersports cylinder services including plating, boring, and diamond honing. We also offer a cylinder exchange program.

www.usnicom.com

Slick

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"U.S. Chrome - Wisconsin (hereafter called "USCW") offers a 365-day warranty on our proprietary NiCom Plating. This warranty covers adhesion issues of the plating only. Upon authorized return inspection by USCW, any plating that is deemed defective due to work performed at our facility will either be repaired or credited onto the dealer’s USCW account at the option of USCW.

This limited warranty does not apply to any product which fails due to damage, misuse, improper installation, improper or inadequate maintenance, extreme temperature failure, mishandling, accident, normal wear, or post-plating modifications. USCW is not liable for damage to parts due to specification or sizing issues. It is the customer’s duty to ensure the specifications are correct before installation."
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- sounds like repairs or fixes were done before, good bet was problematic.
"We are no longer offering welding services."

-There have been issues in air cooled aviation engine use

CermiNil Or Not? - Aviation Consumer

Permit me a war story: During the summer months, the air around New Braunfels, Texas is as thick as concrete. At the airport, the ramp temperatures begin to soar at first light and pitchers of iced tea are downed for breakfast. Id flown there on a warranty trip put together in a hurry...

www.aviationconsumer.com

"Failed Expectations
Almost immediately, we learned that in some installations, the Cermicrome process failed to survive in even the least demanding of engine applications, the Lycoming-powered Mooney line and the Cessna singles.

Sagging compressions, just-okay oil consumption and blowing breather oil were but a few of the complaints. Some found the new barrel would wear prematurely, primarily due to the loss of the oil-wetted silica impregnated into the chrome wall, the very process that was supposed to make a Cermicrome cylinder the product of the future."

gpzkat said:

It was cheaper to mill the spigot off than repair those threads as far as I could tell. Another factor was that the newer head seemed to be in better shape overall and was not painted black which would be a pain to remove.

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Blasting using baking soda would remove the paint with ease and you may want to try this on your cylinder head 25319. It will make the head look like new.

- Knut

mdt-son said:

Blasting using baking soda would remove the paint with ease and you may want to try this on your cylinder head 25319. It will make the head look like new.

- Knut

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Hi Knut - actually that IS blasted, but the gasket surface does look grotty hmm. I used two compressors ganged at about 90 psi and 6.5cfm, not effective at all on the black paint.