A good start to 2019, just missing a little oil...

MxMartin

MxMartin

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Nov 13, 2017
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Started mine today, 1st start since last October. Fired up fine, idled at 1500rpm for a good few minutes then settled to around 1200rpm. Yes my right pipe smoked a little more than the left, then cleared, then the left smoked a little then cleared... seem to recall Rob saying that the right cylinder takes the devils share of fuel so will warm up quicker, get hotter, so I'm not too concerned about the subtle differences between the two at start up.

Ran out of time to take her for a spin but end of this week looks brill at around 14degC and sunshine :)

The last time she was out was on the run to Ace Cafe where, if you remember, my catch bottle filled to overflowing and left a puddle under the bike. I put the bike away and did nothing more to her all Winter. Today I emptied my catch bottle and checked my oil tank dipstick which showed the cold oil level was below the knurled region. I started the bike, let her warm up for a good 5-10 mins, checked oil lines were getting nice and warm then shut her off and rechecked dipstick.... still a good centimetre below knurled area. I don't know how much oil loss this represents as I don't have any of the correct grade to put in (I know, buy a Norton and buy a gallon of oil at the same time just in case lol), so my assumption that running my bike at 80+mph for an extended period (100+ miles?) doesn't just fill the catch bottle but it chucks it out!!! I've got a gallon of Silkolene coming tomorrow so I will know how much I've lost but has anyone else experienced this on a MkII ? Low pressure Oil light not illuminated so my guess is I am just being a little paranoid but will know more tomorrow.
 
Was the bike oil level in the knurled area when you parked it ? The new bikes should not wet sump at all .
 
Hello Martin , know its not a Norton but my wife is on her third new Mini they all drink oil i asked B M W what the oil consumption should be they recon 1ltr = 1,000 miles this is ridicules for a new engine but apparently normal.
 
john clark said:
Hello Martin , know its not a Norton but my wife is on her third new Mini they all drink oil i asked B M W what the oil consumption should be they recon 1ltr = 1,000 miles this is ridicules for a new engine but apparently normal.
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Blimey
I did not know that - will be checking my oil level in my mini tomorrow!
The service interval is 24 months so looks like BMW don’t know :eek:
 
john clark said:
Hello Martin , know its not a Norton but my wife is on her third new Mini they all drink oil i asked B M W what the oil consumption should be they recon 1ltr = 1,000 miles this is ridicules for a new engine but apparently normal.
Click to expand...
Geez. I own a 2002 Jetta Gli six and it might lose a liter after 4K. Did BMW really want to build a retro in TRUE English fashion or is BP sabotaging the British engine market? Even my Norton oil level went from close to the top of the knurled area to 2/3 of the way up after 3K miles. What gives? My tranny seems to lose oil, but not my engine.
 
TonyA said:
Was the bike oil level in the knurled area when you parked it ? The new bikes should not wet sump at all .
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Tony, I didn't check the oil level when I parked up but I know that the level was very close to the bottom of the knurled section on previous checks. I don't think she has wet sumped as the level in the tank barely changed from cold start to hot shutdown 10 mins later. The one thing I didn't do which the owners manual says is to raise rpm to 2500 for 10 secs prior to shutdown so I will do that this week just to make sure the pump has scavenged everything.

John, I don't think the bike has burnt any oil or very little, I think my problem is the bike spitting it out thru the airbox into the catch bottle which overflowed. I lost more oil in that one sustained high speed 300 mile round trip than I did in the previous 2k miles where I rarely went over 60mph and only for short durations.
 
MxMartin said:
I lost more oil in that one sustained high speed 300 mile round trip than I did in the previous 2k miles where I rarely went over 60mph and only for short durations.
Click to expand...

I just did a 150mile easy run down to London then when just settling into hotel got a call from home to say a water tank in the loft was leaking water through the house. A very quick blast back and the the next morning a pool of oil, the pipe into the catch tank had come loose, and 1/4" of oil left on the bottom of the dipstick. I get the feeling the oil breather problems aren't fully resolved yet...... I carry my home made carved ash oil filler key with me and will be doing more regular checks now.
 
I would be checking that catch bottle after every ride especially if it's high speed. Don't wait 800 miles to check. I had to stop using the bottle again because it is too small for the long interstate driving I do. Maybe Norton can make a larger bottle for us to retrofit say 300 cc . I am not kidding ! Also maybe two air/oil separators in series between crankcase and airbox ?? Or a larger different design air/oil separator . What do you think ?
 
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TonyA said:
I would be checking that catch bottle after every ride especially if it's high speed. Don't wait 800 miles to check. I had to stop using the bottle again because it is too small for the long interstate driving I do. Maybe Norton can make a larger bottle for us to retrofit say 300 cc . I am not kidding ! Also maybe two air/oil separators in series between crankcase and airbox ?? What do you think ?
Click to expand...

Surely there has to be a better way Tony?

My 850 has a reed valve breather and I’m amazed at how little air it passes. I run a simple bolt on reed valve on my T140 and T120 with similar effect, virtually zero oil comes out.

None have oil separators fitted.

The 961 might be a little bigger than the 850, but it’s 270 degree firing order makes for easier breathing.

So... why do these bikes eject oil from the breather?
 
Good question . The 360 deg crank displaces a lot more volume per revolution. So it makes one think that the one way reed valve is NOT needed on a 270 crank . This may be a worthwhile experiment . There are several in line check valve available for this purpose to be installed in the line between crankcase and air box. But I have a fear of oil collecting above the check valve unable to run back to the case. This is why that check valve needs to be installed just before the airbox so it can loose its load if it collects to the airbox.

The crankcase vent needs to be relocated to a splash free area for starters , say on the timing side with a large breathing hole between case and timing side. Like the old commando. Cootes have done this with good results .
 
Or as you have pointed out earlier , Can it be done the old way ? Run the breather back to the oil tank and then let it breath off the oil tank to the air box. The plumbing will be a bit challanging but could be done . Didn't a member do this on his bike ?
 
I think rerouting the lines is the correct way to reduce the problem.
If the breather line could be fixed to the just below the oil filler neck of the tank, and a vapor line routed from the other side of the tank to the airbox, that might work better.
The problem will be that on hard braking, oil in the tank that moves forward, might get into the vapor line going to the airbox anyway.

Unfortunately, the oil tank is mounted high up in the frame and this presents a problem for "oiling" the airbox.
The 961 looks great with that tiny, slim airbox, but we would all be better served if the 961 had an under-seat mounted, classic style oil tank.
It would help solve the breather/airbox oil issue.
 
TonyA said:
Good question . The 360 deg crank displaces a lot more volume per revolution. So it makes one think that the one way reed valve is NOT needed on a 270 crank . This may be a worthwhile experiment . There are several in line check valve available for this purpose to be installed in the line between crankcase and air box. But I have a fear of oil collecting above the check valve unable to run back to the case. This is why that check valve needs to be installed just before the airbox so it can loose its load if it collects to the airbox.

The crankcase vent needs to be relocated to a splash free area for starters , say on the timing side with a large breathing hole between case and timing side. Like the old commando. Cootes have done this with good results .
Click to expand...

Tony, please don’t share anymore of our secrets. We already told Norton but they didnt want to listen. And they kindly asked us to leave the forum as we are ruining their lives. PS. My bike has ZERO oil in airbox. My last run was 600miles in 2 days. Zero oil. C’mon summer.
 
My gallon of Silkolene arrived today, added 400ml to oil tank (cold) to bring the level about 1mm onto knurled section of dip stick, not warmed her up yet. If my memory is right and my oil level was just on the line prior to the last run of last year then losing approx. 350ml in 280 miles is a LOT imho. On the other hand, if the level was already low (I admit I don't check oil regularly) then losing/consuming 350ml in 1600 mile since last service isn't much of a big deal. I'm with Clive, the breather can't cope with the volume of air displaced under stress. (PS: hope your ceilings are still up!)

I hope to get a couple of hours run this Friday around my local biker roads, lots of hard accelerating/braking on these roads but keeping to the 60mph legal speeds (give or take a little). I should arrive back home with very little/no oil in catch bottle.

As a side note when emptying my catch bottle I noticed that the end of the rubber tube had split where it goes over the nipple of the bottle which explains why the rear end of my bike got plastered in oil. There was just enough free play in the tube for me to snip off the split end but the tube will need replacing as it's under a little tension now.
 
MxMartin said:
My gallon of Silkolene arrived today, added 400ml to oil tank (cold) to bring the level about 1mm onto knurled section of dip stick, not warmed her up yet. If my memory is right and my oil level was just on the line prior to the last run of last year then losing approx. 350ml in 280 miles is a LOT imho. On the other hand, if the level was already low (I admit I don't check oil regularly) then losing/consuming 350ml in 1600 mile since last service isn't much of a big deal. I'm with Clive, the breather can't cope with the volume of air displaced under stress. (PS: hope your ceilings are still up!)

I hope to get a couple of hours run this Friday around my local biker roads, lots of hard accelerating/braking on these roads but keeping to the 60mph legal speeds (give or take a little). I should arrive back home with very little/no oil in catch bottle.

As a side note when emptying my catch bottle I noticed that the end of the rubber tube had split where it goes over the nipple of the bottle which explains why the rear end of my bike got plastered in oil. There was just enough free play in the tube for me to snip off the split end but the tube will need replacing as it's under a little tension now.
Click to expand...
Mark
The catch bottle on my bike was only about a third full after 1600 miles - so the system seems to work?!
I know we all ride a bit differently but I am not a wheelie maniac nor do I trundle around so an “average” rider and it seems ok.
John
 
Eljahara said:
Mark
The catch bottle on my bike was only about a third full after 1600 miles - so the system seems to work?!
I know we all ride a bit differently but I am not a wheelie maniac nor do I trundle around so an “average” rider and it seems ok.
John
Click to expand...
Same here John, I'm just your average rider and my bottle filled in 2k miles which was spot on predicted by Norton service team. It was the last 280 miles of last year when I ran down to the Ace cafe using the A1 and although it is a 70mph road most of the way there are extended sections of 4 lane carriageways where everyone hits 80... 85... 90mph lol and this is where I appear to have dumped my oil.
 
TonyA said:
Good question . The 360 deg crank displaces a lot more volume per revolution. So it makes one think that the one way reed valve is NOT needed on a 270 crank . This may be a worthwhile experiment . There are several in line check valve available for this purpose to be installed in the line between crankcase and air box. But I have a fear of oil collecting above the check valve unable to run back to the case. This is why that check valve needs to be installed just before the airbox so it can loose its load if it collects to the airbox.

The crankcase vent needs to be relocated to a splash free area for starters , say on the timing side with a large breathing hole between case and timing side. Like the old commando. Cootes have done this with good results .
Click to expand...

You may be able to drill a small hole next to the reed valve (if the body is big enough) and oil can seep back down if that a concern.
 

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