1968 Commando frames

Has anyone actually repaired/added the support their frame with success that could provide photos? I'd be curious to see how you deal with the existing head-steady mount and what the reinforcement looks like.

I suppose one advantage of the original is it must be easier to remove/install the head! :mrgreen:

I would be very careful about doing this repair. A 1969 frame is the right stock fix. It's very hard to fix this, way more work than finding a frame. As can be seen in this picture the frame fails from upward force the bracing is all wrong.

Norbsa:

That's a very telling photo. It clearly shows that Wolverhampton and Plumstead weren't talking to each other. If you turn it upside down, it's identcal to the layout and frame failures on the works M-X team bikes. The wrap-around brace is exactly the same as the original M-X and obviously produces the same stress raiser and crack pattern.

One rather embarassing incident occurred at a motocross meeting. Our rider, Malcolm Davis, was talking to another works rider (Dave Bickers from BSA, I think) and telling him how well our bike handled. He asked if he could take a spin and Malcolm and our pit boss agreed. After several very quick laps (faster than his race laps on his own bike) he came back grinning from ear to ear and said "you lads have done a good job with that frame".

When we got back to the factory, we found the top tube had broken right through and the frame was only being held together by the gas tank! Those BSA's must have been pretty bad.

Interesting insight from Frank Damp on the early days of the Iso frame. Dr Stephan Bauer brought in by Dennis Poore to update the Norton big twin disliked the Featherbed and insisted, quite rightly on a new lighter frame with straight tube sections. So the 1st frame was geomterically correct. However, Ken Sprayson of Renolds Tube and a damn good chassis engineer took one look at it and said "Its going to break there and you need a brace tube here". Bauer told him to piss off. Well, 600 odd frames later the factory started putting in Spraysons bottom tube.

Mick

I have been following this forum for about 2 1/2 years now, but this is my 1st post. (I hope I get it right ) Years ago I had an experience with this type of frame that I think you should hear about. I bought my 1st Norton (1st motorcycle) in March of '73. It was titled as a '70, but I was later told by another dealer that the bike was actually a '69 that had been retitled as a 70? Whatever year it was , doesn't matter, it had the old style frame. One morning while I had the gas tank off checking for loose electrical connections in the coil/condensor area, I saw that the main tube and both down tubes were cracked about 3/4 around just like in the previous photo. I was shocked as I recalled the previous night's ride home where I saw the speedometer read 115 mph! I have often wondered why I am still here to tell this story. I had the frame welded by a competent repair shop and continued to ride it, however, I constantly watched for more cracking. About 2000 miles after the repair, It began cracking again , at all 3 places, about 1/4 inch behind the repair welds. I had it welded again, and then traded it in on a brand new '75 Ducati. The dealer was informed about the cracked frame. About 5 yrs. later, by coincidence, I met the owner that bought the bike after I had traded it in. He told me about the day the front end broke completely off while he was going 30 mph! You wouldn't get me to ride on that frame.

I think that you would be best off changing the frame with the correct replacement, and keep the 1 you have "as is" in the interest of originality. There has to be plenty of them out there, if you can find them. As a matter of fact, I have 1 in my chicken house. The number stamped on the frame tag is 137886. It is not my frame to sell, and I have not spoken to the owner since reading your post, but I would be willing to bet that it could be purchased for a reasonable price. ( probably much less than having yours modified) Other than being rusty, it looks to be in very good shape. If this would be of interest to you , let me know. I would then talk to the owner to see what he thinks. If he is willing to sell it, I could then send photos and proceed from there.

Mike

A Big +1 for Mikes response.
I was going to suggest the same exact idea.
Take it from a rider who HAS BEEN DOWN.
It is not a good feeling.
DO NOT RIDE WITH THIS FRAME!!!!
I would hang it up as a true survivor or item of interest.
Most probably were scrapped so it is unique.
If your intention was to restore as an orig. early factory odd ball
and point out the originality of this unique first year flaw it would be in MHO
an interesting historical machine for display.
Clearly you desire to ride it as we all do ours.
Do not be in a hurry to get hurt.
You have an offer for a frame take it.
Paint it, transfer over the parts.
You will have much more satisfaction and safer enjoyment.
Once the other frame cracks you are going to have to remove a bunch of parts to weld it up.
I would just say do it right and be safe.
I'm gong to be 48 this month.
In the last 3 weeks I have had 1 friend killed on a MC and heard about another.
It's just not worth the risk my friend.
We are here to help with the transfer of parts if needed.
Marshal

I could not agree more with Marshal's opinion.

I guess I was so engrossed in the problems of becoming a Boeing engineer and a US resident alien in mid '68 though late '69 (and getting laid off in April '70!), I hadn't realised how dangerous those frames had become so quickly after production started.

I do vaguely remember the Reynolds comments and Dr. Bauer's rather terse response. He could be terse over just about anything, but the company was starting to show signs of its eventual demise even when I left in June 68, so maybe he had more on his plate than a lot of us down in the trenches realised. He was a brilliant man in his field, which was combustion chemistry, but I wasn't too impressed with his overall perfomance as the Managing Director, but what does a 26 year-old in his third job after college know about being a Managing Director?. I also have a memory of a monumental row involving Bob Trigg, Bernard Hooper and Dr. Bauer after which Hooper left in a big hurry. I still have some old Villers engine maintenance manuals that were in Bernard's desk, when it became mine.

We seemed to have a lot of inter-department fighting, particularly between the development people (including me) and the design team, and the separation between the Villiers industrial engines folks and the AJS/Norton motorcycle people was fuzzy. I actually worked for the head of the industrial engines test group, but spent all my time working with Pete Inchley's competitions and development group. In 18 months, I only visited Plumstead once, even though the Commando development effort was in high gear, and that visit was to do with the US liability issues on the P-11, not the Commando.

Frank, you are right around my age if I read it right. I was 27 in 1970. I'll be 67 this month. Are you still riding? I find it a bit difficult.

Dave
69S

No, Dave, I'm not, though I may start riding a scooter (probably a Helix or one of the smaller Burgmans) as a "dinghy" to our 32' motorhome. We're close in age, I was 69 in late September.

When I first came to the US, I adapted to opposite side car operation without too much of a problem, but I realised that you have a major visual cue in that you're sitting on the other side. On a bike you don't have that cue. Not long after we arrived in Seattle there was a spate of biker accidents and the head of the State Patrol said, on the TV news "There are two kinds of motorcycle riders - those who have had a nasty accident and those who will."

I had already encountered the elderly ladies driving their bargemobiles, looking through the steering wheel rather than over it. I decided that with two young children, I didn't need to have a WSP officer showing up at the door to tell DW she was a widow.

Though I remain a motocycle enthusiast, I haven't ridden on the street since we came here in 1968, except for a couple of 2-mile bursts on a 350 Bridgestone, which frightened me almost to death. The friend (whose bike I rode) was subsequently seriously hurt by the effects of that crazy gearbox. It had a "rotsry" shift. Neutral was at the first position, rather than beween 1 and 2 as most bikes. You could just keep punching and it would go all the way around.

My friend thought he was in fifth (of six) at about 85 mph when in fact he was in 6th. He tapped the lever and got what he thought was a missed shift. Another tap and he got 1st at 85mph. Trashed the tranny, of course, but the deceleration spit him off into the weeds and he broke a lot of extremities. He became a "former" motorcyclist very quickly. Bridgestone subsequently put an indicator showing which gear you were in. That bike wasn't on the market very long anyway. The only other one I tried was a Kawasaki 2-stroke 3-cylinder rig, a 500, I think. Once round the parking lot was enough!

I have missed the sense of community among classic bike riders and I'm glad I found this forum and can participate.

Frank, well, I have been on my Norton into the early 80's, although it was last registered on the road in 75. Just recently I got this thing back together, and boy, it is a rocket like I can't remember. But youth has it's proclivities. So far I have only had this brute on my driveway which is about a half mile long and of course can hardly get into 2nd on the gravel. First time I took it out 2 deer ran in front of me. I have been lucky, rode a 500 single BSA in the early 60's and the Norton for maybe 4 years in the early 70's, even in rush hour traffic around the DC beltway. Only ever dropped any bike maybe twice and those at a near stop. I can understand the fear of being on this thing, and it may not be long that I just don't want to do it any more. Driving in cars even scare me now, probably because I rolled one and I realize my reflexes are shot. Luckily I live in a very rural area, so the traffic is minimal, but the animals are a threat. I do want to get it on the pavement and try it out to see if I can stand it, but as I do down the road in the car, I think of being on a M/C at speed and it scares me, sorry to say.

Dave
69S

Forget the deer, look out for the goats.

Dave:

I never owned a Commando - just rode many miles on the prototypes. I had a works 650SS as my ride to work. When I first started at Marston Road, we lived in Kenilworth, Warwickshire, so I had a very pleasant 40-mile country-roads ride to work. For a while, Plumstead wanted the 650 back to test it with a single carb head. During that time, my ride was switched, still N-V owned mnachines, firstly to a Motom 50cc 2-stroke (Italian brand) which got worse gas mileage than the 650 and then to a scooter which was called the Villers "Fantabulous". It was built by Villers-India and N-V were considering importing it. It was on the stand at the 1967 Motorcycle Show when the Commando was launched, but I don't know what happened to it. It was quite a clever piece - electric start Villiers 9E (197cc single), but was structurally very peculiar. It would have been a marketing disaster if N-V had tried it.

Later, we moved to a small village north of Wolverhampton, about a 7-mile trip. I sometimes rode the bus, but normally just scrounged whaetver was around at quitting time and put the manufacturer's plates on it. The P-11 was interesting, but the works motocrossers (particularly the 360) were really fun. On one occasion the 360 died just as I was slowing down for traffic lights. I popped the clutch and got it running again just before I stopped. A bus pulled up behind me. When the light changes, I revved up and dropped the clutch and found myself going backwards with the knobbly back tire trying to climb the radiator of the bus. Apparently someone had been messing with the timing and got it a bit over-advanced so the engine had started backwards.

My own 2-wheel fleet started out with a new Vespa 150 Clubman in 1958, then a 1960 Ariel Leader followed by a 1954 BSA A7 which I ran both as a solo and with a single-seat sidecar. After getting married in 1964, I gave up bikes until going to N-V and haven't had one since we emigrated.

Frank,
It can sure be a surprise when a 2-stroke starts backward. I recall some 40 years ago on a 250 Yamaha starting it in front of my house. My dad [who had no use for motorbikes] walked out so I had to make an impressive start. He got a good laugh when it dumped me on my face. Jim

Photo's of my 68 frame which I had welded about 18 years ago:





I don't use it as a daily rider but a good chunk of it was in baja NYC.

Older photo.

I remember reading or hearing that Norton gave owner's the option of having a new frame or the old frame modified (as per later bracing as above) to solve the problem.

My understanding is that Norton made attempts to repair some frames at the dealer's shop, but they realized that replacing the frames would be the best way tyo deal with the problem. I'm sure that they had cost concerns and future customer service impressions played a role in the decision to just replace the frames. I do know that the original owner of my 1968 was told by the dealer that the frame need to be replaced.

Black Cat, Thanks for posting those. I had heard about the dealer repair option as well but to this point had never actually seen a repaired frame. I can see how the dealers & or Norton would prefer the replace option. If the repair is done too late you could already have unseen cracking that manifests as a problem down the road.

Oh, and good looking bike!

I'd just like to let anyone interested in this post that I found a replacement frame on EBay. It arrived yesterday and looks to be in really good shape, although it is painted silver but that won't last long as it's off to the powdercoater it goes. I'll keep the original down in my basement and it can be a conversation piece to drag out from time to time.

darmah said:

I'd just like to let anyone interested in this post that I found a replacement frame on EBay. It arrived yesterday and looks to be in really good shape, although it is painted silver but that won't last long as it's off to the powdercoater it goes. I'll keep the original down in my basement and it can be a conversation piece to drag out from time to time.

Click to expand...

Haven't been on here for awhile; did you find a 69 frame?