The workforce, is this happening everywhere?

[Jackman]

So here in USA or maybe just in my little space in the USA the willing to work workforce has shrunk and dwindled to a trickle it didn't start with the pandemic but it certainly up ticked with the pandemic . Prior to the pandemic I'll say about 2015ish and earlier if my employer placed a help wanted ad we would instantly with easy get new hires , guys would show up and go to work some would stay others would move on , then after 2015 ish (my guess) that started changing the new hires became less and less and wanted more money but they still showed up but most not hired, then the pandemic hits and wham the prospect hires start showing up and asking for totally ridiculous pay scales rates that even long term employees don't make , all of those wanting more money were turned away however the pay scales for new hires and current employees have risen along with bonuses for new hires and the results is they still don't come. What the heck is this happening everywhere?

 

[Craig]

I’m no longer part of work force here in NS but both our children are , they say jobs available every where which has never been the case in my lifetime , a job was always a job to get , my son a red seal auto tech left his good secure long term job to work same type of work for Canada Post a federal unionized work force in their vehicle dept , more $ plus the unheard of “cradle to grave@ benefits all Fed. employees are untitled to , non of that working in private business , he laughing now ….

 

[Big_Jim59]

I have a general theory. In the 80s companies started to manage their parole to match their revenue. The rule of thumb was around $100,000 per employee. If the revenue fell below that the "head count" had to be trimmed. This employee shuffle went on for years and willing new hires were always available when things picked up. COVED took a lot of people out of the job market. Some people died. Some people got sick enough that their health didn't allow them to keep working and some people, who were undecided about retirement, got pushed over the edge. Now, the Boomers have retired and two things have happened. 1) The large population of highly trained, work till you drop individuates are gone. 2) The individuals that are left are much younger fewer in number and unwilling to be played in a game of corporate ballance the books. Also gone are the highly skilled individuals with many years experience. (My neighbor did machine tool maintancne and callibration for many years. When he retired he took those skills with him.) Management and HR departments do not recognize that times have indeed changed. There has been a sea change in the job market. It is no longer business's to command. It's just a thought.

 

[ashman]

Here in Aussie land before the pandemic our unemployed was high at 6.5% to 7% but since all restrictions have lifted our unemployment has dropped to 4%, but then GOVTERMENTS seem to fudge figures and hide the true numbers and a lot have given up looking, I been retired now for 8 1/2 years after taking a redundancy from my GOV job, wages have grown since my days of working, my youngest daughter is earning twice as much as what I use to earn but cost of living these days is so much higher than 8 years ago and the min wages are falling way behind inflation.
I don't get any GOV money and I am self funded retiree living on a modest super pension from working in the same GOV job of 31 years without any pay increases for those 8 years, but things do get hard sometime but lucky I still have redundancy money put aside for hard times.
Most school leavers and young ones expect high wages as soon as they start their working life, but really in real life you got to learn, work hard and show your willingness to get further up that ladder, but sadly most just don't want to work hard but expect big pay packets.

Ashley

 

[johnm]

New Zealand is in a tough place regarding trained workers. Firstly the job market for young people is pretty much international. Both my sons work in Australia. NZ paid for their education and university training but the Australian economy gets the benefit. Especially out in the outback where young Australians don't seem to want to work. Australian salaries are higher and houses mostly cheaper. NZ housing is totally ridiculous which is pretty much why young people demand the high salaries. Baby boomers used the housing market as a proxy for investment and now no young people can afford them.

I have a friend trying to hire engineering staff. He needs registered civil engineers so basically 5 years uni plus registration. He just cannot get them and so he is turning down work all the time.

Our education institutions seem to have done a great job in training fine arts, hotel management , and other soft type qualifications but very few technical and STEM qualified people.

The one positive I do see from my own experience is that as in every generation there are some really great kids. I would not like to compete against our best students. They are really good. But almost everyone I know is working overseas at twice the salery they would get at home. And they do work. Most times I call my daughter she is still in the office at 8 at night. My son is dealing with phone calls from all over the world at 1 am. The international nature of the work and 24/7 communication means the hours are ridiculous.

But at the other end of the employment scale unfortunately NZ has grown a large group of people who have fallen through the gaps. When I finished school the people who were not academic worked on the roads, the railway farming labouring etc. But now many people don't seem capable of doing those jobs. They are unreliable , very poor skills, bad literacy and essentially unable to handle life in a modern economy. I'm a huge beleiver in education because it took me from a labourer to uni grad and 30 years of international work. But so many young people waste the educational opportunities available to them. Frankly drugs, gangs and crime. It's bad at the tough end of our society. We are getting drive by shootings most every day in South Auckland. Many overseas people see NZ as some kind of a paradise. But it isn't much like that in some places anymore.

We have a crazy situation with at one end young people who can barely read or get out of bed living on benefit and at the other end really highly qualified people on huge salaries working 12 hour plus 6 days a week.

Neither of which is good or sustainable in the long term.

 

[texasSlick]

Intriguing viewpoints from around the globe. Thanks for your offerings.

Here in Texas, I can add that in my business, we offer a startIng wage we consider to be fair, and commensurate with the prospective employees benefit to the company. Many applicants have told us they can receive more on Covid lockdown, or unemployment. We are tasked with managing the finances of the company so all our employees can rest assured their paychecks will continue in the foreseeable future. Giving wages that reward an employee beyond productivity, threatens that assurance.

I have long stated that the policy of rewarding people for participating, example: everyone gets a blue ribbon for participating, leads to the expectation of top wages just for showing up. That attitude seems to prevail these days. Worse, still, some employees seem to think requiring them to work, and follow rules, is far beyond the reasonable expectations of an employer.

Typical attitude these days: a job is some place you go and get a check

Slick

 

[johnm]

" I have long stated that the policy of rewarding people for participating, example: everyone gets a blue ribbon for participating, leads to the expectation of top wages just for showing up. That attitude seems to prevail these days. Worse, still, some employees seem to think requiring them to work, and follow rules, is far beyond the reasonable expectations of an employer."

Yes it's a funny business. Some people never seem to work out that being useful and solving problems is what pays the bills for the company and gets them promoted or better pay.

There are people who when they walk into your office you think this will be great and will make my day better. They have answers and results.

And then there are others who you just know are going to moan and complain about something. Nothing is ever right.

And then they are surprised when the other person gets promoted.

 

[Jackman]

Just learned today that I'm getting another stimulus check , this one is in the amount of 1,050 dollars and is supposed to help the struggling homeowners in the state and its timed perfectly for the current nonelected governors election bid.

I'm positive these checks are a problem along with other pandemic perks, who needs to work when the powers say you don't have to pay the rent or work for the money .

BTW I didn't miss a lick of work in fact the pandemic gave me longer hours and a fatter paycheck just like everyone else in my company.

 

[grandpaul]

I can't reply, it would be considered too political.

The root of the problem is corrupt government on BOTH sides.

 

[Craig]

I’d agree GP , and add, same all over this world ….

 

[NPeteN]

Curious what y'all consider a living wage for an entry level hire in your respective fields?

 

[BERT]

I’m no longer part of work force here in NS but both our children are , they say jobs available every where which has never been the case in my lifetime , a job was always a job to get , my son a red seal auto tech left his good secure long term job to work same type of work for Canada Post a federal unionized work force in their vehicle dept , more $ plus the unheard of “cradle to grave@ benefits all Fed. employees are untitled to , non of that working in private business , he laughing now ….

"Cradle to grave" is what it used to be called. Nowadays it is "erection to resurrection". And before that it was "From the baby bonus to the old age pension".

 

[johnm]

Curious what y'all consider a living wage for an entry level hire in your respective fields?

I think my children all started around NZ $40 to 50,000 per year. That's around US$25 to $30,000 per year. That's entry level after a four year uni degree.

In 8 to 12 years they are on about US $ 130 to 150,000 per year. Engineer, Lawyer and Digital Consulting in NZ and Australia. .

 

[johnm]

I can't reply, it would be considered too political.

The root of the problem is corrupt government on BOTH sides.

I don't know if I would agree in NZ. I don't think either of our major parties are particularly corrupt. It's just thst NZ struggles to compete because we are basically an agricultural producing nation trying to sell internationally into tariff protected markets.

 

[gortnipper]

I don't know if I would agree in NZ. I don't think either of our major parties are particularly corrupt. It's just thst NZ struggles to compete because we are basically an agricultural producing nation trying to sell internationally into tariff protected markets.

And half a world away from our primary markets

 

[Jackman]

Curious what y'all consider a living wage for an entry level hire in your respective fields?

Living wage and entry level do they go together I don't think so and don't think by rule that they should, my first job was in a bowling alley minimum wage for what I did how could the employer possibly pay me enough to pay rent and heath ins, answer is they can't there is no way to make money with a no skills worker that cleans up after drunk bowlers. Soon in my local all entry level jobs by law will pay 15 dollars an hour to make it more of a living wage imop the increased wage will just increase consumer cost quickly and be a total wash .

 

[NPeteN]

Living wage and entry level do they go together I don't think so and don't think by rule that they should, my first job was in a bowling alley minimum wage for what I did how could the employer possibly pay me enough to pay rent and heath ins, answer is they can't there is no way to make money with a no skills worker that cleans up after drunk bowlers. Soon in my local all entry level jobs by law will pay 15 dollars an hour to make it more of a living wage imop the increased wage will just increase consumer cost quickly and be a total wash .

Full time?
Why would anyone take a full time job that cannot meet modern living expenses?
Many modern workers are not asking for more than they are worth, they are asking for enough to survive.

 

[Jackman]

Full time?
Why would anyone take a full time job that cannot meet modern living expenses?
Many modern workers are not asking for more than they are worth, they are asking for enough to survive.

I think we were talking entry level? Entry level jobs rarely pay enough that's why there entry level, low skill starter job , ya gotta start somewhere most start at the bottom and hard work and with luck bring themselves up .

 

[NPeteN]

I think we were talking entry level? Entry level jobs rarely pay enough that's why there entry level, low skill starter job , ya gotta start somewhere most start at the bottom and hard work and with luck bring themselves up .

I hear ya, and I offer you this.
In my opinion any employer who hires (or expects to hire) someone full time (40hrs) a week should be able to provide a living wage for that employee, entry level or not.

Can't do it? Business model won't allow it?
If you cannot compete for workers you cannot compete under capitalism.

My opinion.

 

[Fast Eddie]

I hear ya, and I offer you this.
In my opinion any employer who hires (or expects to hire) someone full time (40hrs) a week should be able to provide a living wage for that employee, entry level or not.

Can't do it? Business model won't allow it?
If you cannot compete for workers you cannot compete under capitalism.

My opinion.

I totally agree that a working person deserves to earn a living wage. There's not even space for any debate in my mind. But there is a difference between that and a genuine ‘starter’ wage… youngsters starting out on apprenticeships and such like. Kids fresh out of school, etc. Is your argument that there should be no such thing as a starter wage ?