ES2 Engine rebuild.

I am looking at building a 500cc single race bike and picked up an ES2 engine that has been played with.

The seller had run the engine in a parade at Cadwell park and was quite enthusiastic about how the motor felt, he said it was very smooth and seemed to go well, he said it was ready to race. He broke the bike up to fund a Manx, lucky chap.

I don't think he built the engine, I believe that it was built in Denmark and there is a video here of the Danish owner running the bike up when it was in one piece.



The engine turned over very smooth and there didn't seem to be anything knocking when rocking it back and forth, but, there was silicon hanging out of just about every joint and I don't like that stuff, and I was curious what was in the thing so I decided to strip it.

This is turning out to be one of those times when I am glad I am a nosey sod.

The first problem was the cam timing, I checked it so I could rebuild the motor with the same timing as when it was running, oh dear.

Inlet opens 70 deg BTDC and closes 87deg ABDC thats 337 deg duration with 98.5 deg center.
Exhaust opens 87 deg ATDC and closes 61 deg ATDC so 328 deg duration and 103 deg center.

Checked with .004" clearance. seems odd to me. Also, it looks like the cam followers have been touching the inside of the cam gears, here is a pic to show that and the difference between what is in there and standard cams.



The next problem was the piston, there are signs of the valves hitting it.

I initially thought valve float, but amongst the paperwork that came with the engine were a few emails between the Danish guy and Mike Pemberton, they were using google translate and it looked like the builder was struggling with setting the cam timing so maybe the problem has gone away considering the guy I bought it off had been running it. I will be checking clearances though.





I then noticed that all the ring gaps were lined up, also not good, I then realised the piston was fitted back to front, the pic below show contact where the inlet valve has been hitting the edge of the exhaust valve pocket.



There is some kind of coating on the piston so I am not sure if the colours visible in the next pic are to do with that or heat.



Incidentally, I want to be out on track with this engine on the 18th March at the test day at Mallory, as I was taking this apart, I didn't have anything else other that the gearbox(that will be coming apart next)

Fortunately, the rolling chassis I have bought landed from Germany last night so that may speed the build up, I am hoping this will turn out to be quite special but so far, as usual things are conspiring against me.

Onwards, and time to split the cases, the crank and rod look special.



But then I notice the bearing in the rod is not centred, this means the rod can touch the crank cheek on the timing side, this looks really bad in the pic but it is more of a polish that proper damage.



Also there was a shim in the drive side which is the same size as the bearing ID/OD, you can see it in the background, obviously that cannot work and the result is pictured below.



Oh well, back in the garage to try and work out a plan of action, it wouldn't be fun if every thing was OK, would it?

Christ Ralph, that would have stopped me in my tracks! I know you will be able to sort it out but you are up against it time wise. All the best Chris

Thanks Chris, it will only slow me down bit, I have covid just now, that slowed me down more.

The test day is THREE whole weeks away Ralph… dunno what you’re worried about mate…

Some nice stuff in there, it’ll be interesting to see what it goes like when you’ve nailed it together !

Three weeks I need to loose about two stone before the racing starts.

I think I am going to bolt the motor back together sans le crank to see if it will fit in the chassis, because if it won't then the Seeley needs a service.

With the motor empty, it should be easier to line things up and get the exhaust to fit.

I am just going to drag the bike out of the van to post some pics of the rest of it.

Some pics of what it is hopefully going in.

Awesome!

I predict a season trouble shooting the ES2 motor… followed by a season of development… followed by a 92mm bore Molnar motor…!!

storm42 said:

Thanks Chris, it will only slow me down bit, I have covid just now, that slowed me down more.

Click to expand...

Might want to get some superman blood transfusions. Covid takes a while to recover from. Life will seem normal feeling alright and so on, but I didn't get my wind back on the bicycle trainer for about 3 months after the primary symptoms were gone. That crap lingers.

Sure hope your recovery is quick. Racing could be one heck of a workout right after having covid.

Good luck with the project. Your experience is why I do all my own assembly, and only farm out the machine work if I can't fake it with a hacksaw, bastard file, and some scotch-brite.

storm42 said:

Three weeks I need to loose about two stone before the racing starts.

Click to expand...

Don’t worry about that Ralph… good strategy that mate… load up with calories and then you can work flat out for the next 3 weeks without having to waste time eating.

You’ll save 3 hours a day... x 21 days… thats 63 extra working hours…!

Storm42,
Stay with the ES2 and when you get it right you will be able to blow away most of the Manx bikes, depending on your riding ability of course, but start with finding a different crank, a press fit pin is a must.
There are two ES2 machines in Classic racing, one in Oz, owner Geoff Clatworthy, the other in NZ, owner Peter Lodge. Both can blow away the best of the Manx engine jobs. If you search the internet and/or FB you can find information on both.

Ralph, reply to the above saying “load of bollox… don’t believe you… prove it…”

Cos it sounds like you’ve piqued the man’s interest, and that could lead to something VERY interesting !!

Fast Eddie said:

Awesome!

I predict a season trouble shooting the ES2 motor… followed by a season of development… followed by a 92mm bore Molnar motor…!!

Click to expand...

I get where you are coming from, but it would probably be an 86mm bore.

Schwany said:

Might want to get some superman blood transfusions. Covid takes a while to recover from. Life will seem normal feeling alright and so on, but I didn't get my wind back on the bicycle trainer for about 3 months after the primary symptoms were gone. That crap lingers.

Sure hope your recovery is quick. Racing could be one heck of a workout right after having covid.

Good luck with the project. Your experience is why I do all my own assembly, and only farm out the machine work if I can't fake it with a hacksaw, bastard file, and some scotch-brite.

Click to expand...

I have been testing negative for a week now but I know what you are saying, I went for an 11 mile MBT ride on Friday and spent the next 12 hours asleep and my mountain bike is electric.

storm42 said:

I have been testing negative for a week now but I know what you are saying, I went for an 11 mile MBT ride on Friday and spent the next 12 hours asleep and my mountain bike is electric.

Click to expand...

Focus Ralph. You’ve no time for such frivolities. Less than 3 weeks, and counting…

storm42 said:

I get where you are coming from, but it would probably be an 86mm bore.

Click to expand...

Well, that would be the sensible choice for sure. Marginal power deficit and maximum class flexibility.

Snotzo said:

Storm42,
Stay with the ES2 and when you get it right you will be able to blow away most of the Manx bikes, depending on your riding ability of course, but start with finding a different crank, a press fit pin is a must.
There are two ES2 machines in Classic racing, one in Oz, owner Geoff Clatworthy, the other in NZ, owner Peter Lodge. Both can blow away the best of the Manx engine jobs. If you search the internet and/or FB you can find information on both.

Click to expand...

I really like the idea of getting the ES2 to be in the mix. There are the professionals like Minnovation on the G50's and Molnar on his Manx's that will be untouchable, but they run the Goldstars in the same class and a few of them are well into the rest of the Manx's, plus Steve Linsdell's efforts on the Enfield is another source of hope.

I did ask Geoff about his ES1,2,3 and 4 when he posted a rider report and he was open about what he had done to them, I have PM'd him but as yet he hasn't replied, I guess he is busy just now. I won't be able to match what he is achieving because he runs methanol but the fact his motors stay together is inspirational.

The crank is a Kohl and I did wonder why they had gone to the effort of producing a Manx dimensioned steel crank and then bolting it together. I will be replacing it but unfortunately I don't have the money for that just now. If the engine wants to rev with the cams and headwork then I will sell something and get one made up. Time is the other kicker, the Mallory test day is on the 18th March.

The chassis came with an NRP pipe which I believe was made to a Summerfield design for a Manx, I think I can get it to fit but I would be grateful for your input on the exhaust. The chassis did have a Manx engine in it but it was removed to be kept as a spare and I bought the rest.

Fast Eddie said:

Focus Ralph. You’ve no time for such frivolities. Less than 3 weeks, and counting…

Click to expand...

It is sort of essential, I really am a bit of a lardarse just now.

The motor choice would be about flexibility and I understand how much help Snotzo could be, but the lowest common denominator in all this is me. I just wouldn't make the best use of a 92 and whilst I would love to get an ES2 capable of beating the Manx's, I would have to put a younger rider on it to do it. That isn't out of the mix though.

Ralph ride it at Mallory & see how it feels. I think you will love it & you will whittle away at it until you get it how you want it.

A small amount of progress, I got the engine and box in the chassis yesterday, just. I bought the engine and box together, but missed out on the Bob Newby clutch and belt drive. The engine came with the engine plates so I figured I need to use them because I know I can get a clutch and belt drive from Bob and it will fit.

The gearbox is a Triumph slickshift that has been modified to take a T140 5 speed cluster, money, or lack of it, is the main reason for it use, but hopefully it will be good.

The rest of the bike is or was a Ray Petty Manx, this was built after Ray had left us and I believe White Rose racing had something to do with it in conjunction with Summerfield who had links to Ray.

The last single cylinder bike to win a British championship was a Petty Manx with Percy May on board, 1971 I believe. Ray basically shrunk a featherbed frame and generally improved it, just how far he went with this became evident when I tried to get the engine and box in. Ray mounted the engine directly onto the front mount, I cannot do this with the ES2 because the timing chest hits the frame, I will be making another set of plates that reach down to the next holes in the engine but for now you can see in the first picture how far back the engine sat when in a Featherbed, that unused hole it the original mount. The second picture shows the rear mount and how far back the mount was in the Featherbed.





The last picture shows how close the gearbox is to the frame, there is a gap but only just.

Chris said:

Ralph ride it at Mallory & see how it feels. I think you will love it & you will whittle away at it until you get it how you want it.

Click to expand...

That is the plan Chris.