Bushman's Rebuild Update

iwilson said:

As it turned out I didn't need to fit a one way valve. I simply redid the plumbing (back to the MKI layout) and although I could have had the breather pipe terminate in the airbox I instead added a small oil separator just to see how effective my new plumbing was. Turned out it was very effective with only a tiny amount of oil making it into the separator.

Voodooo if your Naked still has the banjo bolts on the cam cover you might want to change the breathing back to the MKI style and just vent to a little oil separator and then to the air - works a treat for me. That way you can throw away the airbox oil bottle and never have oil going anywhere near the airbox (just remember to block the hole in the airbox where the breather hose used to go).

Click to expand...

Neither my 16 Commando sf and 17 Domi naked have banjo bolts in the rocker covers.
Both bikes are plumbed the same. And only the Domi gets oil in the air box. It literally gets oil to drip from the drain hose. The only difference between the two bikes are the Domi has a evap canister.
So you’re saying to eliminate the black plastic factory breather and plumbing and do what’s shown in the diagram you posted?

Eljahara said:

Scott,
Found the thread - it was iwilson!
Unraveling the 961 part two (oil in the air box)

Click to expand...

Thank you Mate. Appreciate you.

Voodooo said:

Neither my 16 Commando sf and 17 Domi naked have banjo bolts in the rocker covers.
Both bikes are plumbed the same. And only the Domi gets oil in the air box. It literally gets oil to drip from the drain hose. The only difference between the two bikes are the Domi has a evap canister.
So you’re saying to eliminate the black plastic factory breather and plumbing and do what’s shown in the diagram you posted?

Click to expand...

Yes, but you can't because your bikes don't have the banjo bolts on the rocker covers. I think some engines suffer more blow-by than others which can cause more oil to escape from the breather - you might want to do a compression test on both bikes to see if there's a difference. One other thing I noticed was the nipple that drains the oil from the airbox sits quite high inside the airbox, so once oil starts coming out it meant there was actually quite a lot sloshing around inside the airbox and soaking the air filter.

I temporarily replaced the breather hoses with transparent silicon hoses so I could see what was going on - there was a lot coming out! The most effective solution turned out to be just returning the system to the MKI state but not terminating it in the airbox.

iwilson said:

Yes, but you can't because your bikes don't have the banjo bolts on the rocker covers. I think some engines suffer more blow-by than others which can cause more oil to escape from the breather - you might want to do a compression test on both bikes to see if there's a difference. One other thing I noticed was the nipple that drains the oil from the airbox sits quite high inside the airbox, so once oil starts coming out it meant there was actually quite a lot sloshing around inside the airbox and soaking the air filter.

I temporarily replaced the breather hoses with transparent silicon hoses so I could see what was going on - there was a lot coming out! The most effective solution turned out to be just returning the system to the MKI state but not terminating it in the airbox.

Click to expand...

Why couldn’t I machine holes for banjo bolts?

Voodooo said:

Why couldn’t I machine holes for banjo bolts?

Click to expand...

You can! Didn't realise you were so keen to sort it. Just wondering if there might be another approach that gets the same result without needing to drill holes (the Norton solution is clearly not working satisfactorily for you). But I suppose you could keep the Norton oil separator and try and add another valve/separator after it to catch what's getting past. But there's not a lot of space to work with. I get water with a bit of tiny bit of oil in my little separator, so it does need emptying but I'd rather that than feed it back into the airbox.

iwilson said:

You can! Didn't realise you were so keen to sort it. Just wondering if there might be another approach that gets the same result without needing to drill holes (the Norton solution is clearly not working satisfactorily for you). But I suppose you could keep the Norton oil separator and try and add another valve/separator after it to catch what's getting past. But there's not a lot of space to work with. I get water with a bit of tiny bit of oil in my little separator, so it does need emptying but I'd rather that than feed it back into the airbox.

Click to expand...

I’ve just clicked over 8,000 miles and have done almost the same as Iwilson dit it at about 1,000. I never carry tools etc and she hasn’t missed a beat. In absolute heaven!!

iwilson said:

You can! Didn't realise you were so keen to sort it. Just wondering if there might be another approach that gets the same result without needing to drill holes (the Norton solution is clearly not working satisfactorily for you). But I suppose you could keep the Norton oil separator and try and add another valve/separator after it to catch what's getting past. But there's not a lot of space to work with. I get water with a bit of tiny bit of oil in my little separator, so it does need emptying but I'd rather that than feed it back into the airbox.

Click to expand...

Would you recommend adding two banjos to the cam cover or is there an alternative?
Doing the banjos in the cam cover, would I then be able to eliminate the plastic crank case breather?
Thank you.

Voodooo said:

Are you referring to the black anodized aluminum inline filter screen from frame oil tank to oil pump? Then yes I do. Only on my Dominator naked. My commando didn’t come factory fitted with the inline filter screen but I installed one.

Click to expand...

No, I mean the inline check valve between the oil cooler and the oil pump.

Hosted on Fotki

Heroes in the whole saga! No more worries about "publicly disclosing the un-talked about issues with the 961"

richard-7 said:

The problem is availability of parts. As crazy as it sounds, its like pulling teeth getting even simple things like gaskets.

My dad is almost (actually there) done with all of this. Zero support from Norton makes it not worth it. If a dealer struggles to get parts then what’s the use of continuing with Norton.

Simon clearly doesnt like us or appreciate us so I’m sure thats why. You guys may have better luck.

Click to expand...

bushman said:

Your Dad has been the number one resource for me in undertaking this work. His experience with working with the issues of these bikes has got to be best around. He was able to point me in the right direction every time.... the first diagnosis with the balance shaft bearing.... then the crankshaft mounting issue.... then the out of balance, balance shaft.....then the rockers. I bet he has seen it all - and I gather with such poor support from Norton UK, what is the point of continuing to fix their problems without any acknowledgement or ownership of the problems.

It was easy for Norton UK to disown me and my efforts, because I am not a "authorized" shop...so your spotty teenager apprentices responsible for hand assembling these machines are far superior than 45 years of experience wrenching motorcycles. You don't need a degree to work on these bikes, they are a lot simpler than the MV Agusta 3 and 4 cylinder bikes I get to work on. I guess at some point I am going to have a few stern words with Norton UK....in the meantime I have no hesitation in publicly disclosing the un-talked about issues with the 961.

Click to expand...

Voodooo said:

Would you recommend adding two banjos to the cam cover or is there an alternative?
Doing the banjos in the cam cover, would I then be able to eliminate the plastic crank case breather?
Thank you.

Click to expand...

Yes, you need two. One is the input from the crankcase the other is the output to my separator. You can then remove the plastic Norton oil separator (as per the pic of my bike).

BritTwit said:

No, I mean the inline check valve between the oil cooler and the oil pump.

Hosted on Fotki

Click to expand...

Well my 16 commando sf has one but my 17 Domi naked does not. What the heck.
What can I use since these are no longer available?

Voodooo said:

Well my 16 commando sf has one but my 17 Domi naked does not. What the heck.
What can I use since these are no longer available?

Click to expand...

At this time I really don't know of a suitable substitute.
It would be great if a former Norton employee were lerking about on the forum and chimed in.

Here is the official Norton parts list for the oil-in-airbox kit
The check valve is part# 5210055


Hosted on Fotki

BritTwit said:

At this time I really don't know of a suitable substitute.
It would be great if a former Norton employee were lerking about on the forum and chimed in.

Here is the official Norton parts list for the oil-in-airbox kit
The check valve is part# 5210055

Hosted on Fotki

Click to expand...

I’m going to do some research. It can’t be to complicated to find a check valve with the same specs.

https://www.oldbritts.com/13_400001.html

https://damondmotorsports.com/products/check-valve

https://jrcengineering.com/technical-support/anti-wet-sump-check-valve-install/

Hello Voodoo , Your newest frame may not need the one way check valve in the oil return to the cooler . If it is of the newest design like FE's bike ( all new 961's) . The oil return pipe was above the oil level in the tank so the contents of the oil tank will not drain back. BUT what is in the oil cooler may drain back . So , it may be a good idea to add one I think . The one way check valves are available all over the internet. There is a baffle inside the banjo type rocker cover on the outlet side (L/H side) . So just drilling a hole may not be the best. I happen to have a banjo type rocker cover that I would be willing to trade you. I will take your banjo-less cover in trade. This one has all of the banjos on it already. The hoses are 3/8" ID so get the barbs at 3/8 in. If you remove the oil line from the top oil cooler barb and oil does NOT come running out of the frame you have the latest design. I like the banjo-less cover and the Commando air box accommodates the oil discharge very much better. The Domi air box does not tolerate any oil without making a mess.

I've never really understood how removing the rocker cover (MK1) method of crank/engine breather would fix the overall issues and I believe it actually caused issues.

I have read just about every post on this forum on the subject on this subject and am now of the opinion that there was always 3 issues. (or there about, 4th is very technical and involves blow by due to incorrect piston size and drilling the head, Richard-07 territory here)

1. General evaporated oil vapor (slow buildup within bottom of air-box, no drain on early units)
2. Wet-sumping (slow to moderate draining to sump causing glut of oil on startup)
3. Weak scavenge (Oil pump no pulling enough out and members have noticed a "glut" of oil at idle after a normal run)

I cannot see how either wet-sumping or the scavenge issue could be helped with the R6 oil catcher retro fitted, surely if you pump oil to the rocker case it has to then navigate its was across the rocker assembly and out the shielded breather exit on the opposite side... not possible, surely it would fall into the oil-ways and find its way down to sump again ?

JWilson reverted back to the Mk1 model and has a small oil/air separator, I believe that I will follow this to elevate me from the "glut" of oil situations that occur and will leave the small drain bottle with my fish tank air valve to drain the evaporated oil residue.

I blanked the rocker as others have done so need to refit the banjo bolts and work out how to shield the out breather.

My bike is still not even run in (860 Klms), blows approx 4 of the little catcher bottles every-time I take it for a 45 min run. I believe I have the blow-by issue and possibly the check valves are faulty, most likely due to my bike sitting for 4 years unused looking pretty in the former owners living room. (changed the oil immediately upon purchase) I have ordered a Harley D in-line oil filter for the reservoir intake side of the oil pump as although my bike has the retro fitted check valves etc it does not have the inline filter. (again possibly why the check valve may have failed)

QUESTION, The head has a vent that goes to the Oil tank, I assume that this vent is above the oil level within the oil tank ?? anyone have info on this, I have used an inspection camera within the oil tank but cant quite see well enough, any info would be of use here ?

This little 20c fish tank air valve is stopping me from dieing on left hand corners currently, I have had oil on the wheel just once and shat myself. (arrow down means oil will flow)

The head vent must be above the oil level for obvious reasons, but just pull the pipe off at the head if you want to confirm 100%. I would just copy what I've done, no need to bother risking gumming up the throttle bodies by running the breather into the airbox.