Swapped Boyer for Tri-Spark

[swooshdave]

Well that certainly answers the question about them never kicking back !

You do now that you have to hold it above 4,000 to strobe it properly ?

How does it time with the LED ?

I don’t strobe mine anymore. I found that setting it with the LED made it strobe cock on, so now I just set with the LED.

The current instructions say turn until the light goes out and then 2mm more. Of course I just eyeballed the 2mm and then dialed in with the strobe.

 

[marshg246]

On a points ignition properly timed with a properly working auto advance, the spark to one cylinder happens at 4 degrees before TDC. A kickback happens when there is fuel and air in the cylinder and you don't have the crank spinning fast enough to get it past the 4 degrees.

Some older EIs are really just electronic points.

Some EIs don't fire on the first signal so the engine can get past the first "fire point" and be too slow when it does fire and kickback.

A property installed Tri-Spark cannot kick back because although the running advance curve is very similar to the stock auto advance curve, at kicking speed it is not 4 degrees before TDC, it at TDC or slightly past. That's not to say that you cannot make one kick back but if you simply kick without all the advice you've heard over the years, the bike will simply start. Do not try to "ease past TDC" do not try > 29 degrees or if you do, be sure to "kick like a man!"

I simply kick without thinking about where the engine is in the cycle and I never have had a kickback with Tri-Spark on versions Tri-0002, Tri-0005A, Tri-0005B, or Tri-0006. I did not start using them before they had the test button so I cannot say about them

 

[MexicoMike]

I've had the same Trispark on my Commando since 2008 it has been totally bulletproof! When I bought the bike in '06 it had a Boyer and it would barely run I tossed the Boyer in the rubbish bin and installed the OEM points/AAU. It ran great and I had NO intention of going to another E-ignition. But when the Trispark came out I decided to give it a try because it had essentially the same advance curve as the AAU as opposed to the incorrect curve of the Boyer/several other E-ignitions. Never had the Trispark kick back.

Re E-ignition - I have found a similar, interesting issue with an E-ignition for my 1976 Honda CB400F. In this case the e ignition retains the original mechanical advance system so the curve is exactly the same as OEM with the points. HOWEVER...when set to exactly the same timing, the engine runs better with the points than with the E ignition. I have NO idea why this should be the case though an ignition expert suggests it's related to dwell time.

 

[acadian]

put two drops of superglue down the rear of the holes for the rotor magnets as a preventative measure, the recent ones have a tendency to back out and kill the ignition, it's a problem known to TriSpark on some models

 

[wavey_davey]

I've had the same Trispark on my Commando since 2008 it has been totally bulletproof! When I bought the bike in '06 it had a Boyer and it would barely run I tossed the Boyer in the rubbish bin and installed the OEM points/AAU. It ran great and I had NO intention of going to another E-ignition. But when the Trispark came out I decided to give it a try because it had essentially the same advance curve as the AAU as opposed to the incorrect curve of the Boyer/several other E-ignitions. Never had the Trispark kick back.

Re E-ignition - I have found a similar, interesting issue with an E-ignition for my 1976 Honda CB400F. In this case the e ignition retains the original mechanical advance system so the curve is exactly the same as OEM with the points. HOWEVER...when set to exactly the same timing, the engine runs better with the points than with the E ignition. I have NO idea why this should be the case though an ignition expert suggests it's related to dwell time.

For the record I've had a fairly early "separate box" fail on my rocket 3 after about 8 years but only a few thousand miles, replaced with the newer "all in the points cavity" type. If I had a good boyer box and sensor plate I'd be tempted to carry it somewhere on the bike as a backup, the 12v coils would probably struggle to fire in series but could always run just one as a get you home? Not knocking tri spark but any EI can fail without warning and no field fix? On a previous guzzi I could retain the points when running a crank mounted ei, changeover took minutes.
On the kickback variability, definitely worth checking accuracy of the degree plate in the timing window with a degree disc and positive stop. Mine was 3 or more (can't recall exactly) degrees retarded, allied with my own slightly retarded ignition timing anyway I had an engine that ran hot. Might explain some of the kickback stories even though these engines aren't that fussy about exact timing?

 

[o0norton0o]

Thanks for all the feedback... Clearly tri-spark will also kick back... Every time a guy switches to Tri-spark and says some shit about throwing their boyer in the garbage, I wonder if using a tri spark would stop my bike from ever kicking back, given that my leg is still swollen from a kickback that got my calf 3 months ago.

A property installed Tri-Spark cannot kick back because

So all the people who said that their Tri-spark has occasionally kicked back improperly installed them? I doubt that... Enough people have said their Tri-spark has occasionally kicked back that I would disagree with you.

As I said previously, I also contacted boyer and they said their red box fires at +9 after TDC below 400rpm's and mine occasionally kicks back on my bike. My GUESS is that ALL EI's are probably less accurate determining spark timing in the lowest rpm range because it's NOT a physical contact switch like points, it's a magnet, a sensor, and a microcomputer.

What other thing would cause a kick back?

What sort of improper installation are you referring to that would cause a kickback?

Does a tri-spark have the feature where it ignores the first sensor pulse? That would make sense as a way to eliminate kick backs, but then why do some still report the occasional kick back ?

I'm not trying to be a dick here. After my last hematoma on my calf that the edema is still visible 3 months later, I'm looking for an actual solution that doesn't include purchasing a $3,000. electric start system.

 

[Onder]

May I add a few probably unconnected observations?
The Pazon Altair EI on the Norton will often start the bike first kick when cold. But if not it won't start for ages or not at all. It will kick back or it will try to at the very end of the kick stroke. If hot it is nearly impossible to kick over much less start. Otherwise it idles and runs well.
The TriSpark, (on Trident) early separate box type, almost always starts first kick or at worst 2-3. Hot or cold. Runs well but it simply will not idle. Suspect the idle stabilization as it idles too fast then slows down and stops.
The Pazon analogue magnet type (Enfield twins)never kicks back but can be hard to start. Otherwise it runs well and seems reliable after ten years. I do wonder how accurate and effective the magnet type trigger is at kick start speed which with my old leg is pretty slow.
If the recent one piece in points housing TriSpark would cure any or all of this I'd buy it immediately. But
it ain't cheap just to take a flutter on and the temperature inside a points housing on a hot day is pretty serious
making me leary.

 

[ashman]

Not all kickbacks are caused by the ignition, a belly full of fuel (flooded) lazy kicks and then you get the new owners who just don't have the Norton knack of kick starting, all have a roll to play in kickbacks and then there is the tickling of the carbs, some think they need to be tickled every time, no only when cold, over doing it will cause flooding and kickback, I watched a utube of a yellow Norton being started, the shop owner saying this is how you start a Norton he just had no idea at all, kicking it like you do a jap dirt bike, tickling it after every 3 kick and using the choke lever the wrong way, was sad to watch.

 

[Fast Eddie]

Thanks for all the feedback... Clearly tri-spark will also kick back... Every time a guy switches to Tri-spark and says some shit about throwing their boyer in the garbage, I wonder if using a tri spark would stop my bike from ever kicking back, given that my leg is still swollen from a kickback that got my calf 3 months ago.




So all the people who said that their Tri-spark has occasionally kicked back improperly installed them? I doubt that... Enough people have said their Tri-spark has occasionally kicked back that I would disagree with you.

As I said previously, I also contacted boyer and they said their red box fires at +9 after TDC below 400rpm's and mine occasionally kicks back on my bike. My GUESS is that ALL EI's are probably less accurate determining spark timing in the lowest rpm range because it's NOT a physical contact switch like points, it's a magnet, a sensor, and a microcomputer.

What other thing would cause a kick back?

What sort of improper installation are you referring to that would cause a kickback?

Does a tri-spark have the feature where it ignores the first sensor pulse? That would make sense as a way to eliminate kick backs, but then why do some still report the occasional kick back ?

I'm not trying to be a dick here. After my last hematoma on my calf that the edema is still visible 3 months later, I'm looking for an actual solution that doesn't include purchasing a $3,000. electric start system.

You pays your money and makes your choice mate.

My comment about throwing the Boyer away was due to it being 100 years old BTW !

Tri Spark has an anti kick back function that the majority of users say works.

Your use of the word NEVER is really a different point / question. There will always be someone that has it happen and this could be for numerous reasons (as mentioned by Ash).

At the end of the day, if you wish to avoid such injuries as you state, choosing the system that has the best odds is your best bet.

Or go electric start. But even they’re not immune to kick backs !

 

[BrianK]

I've gotten a couple kickbacks. Nothing major. I do think I may have my unit slightly advanced, perhaps 30-31 degrees. I was aiming for 30.

I've also had some really tiny "kickbacks" of a sort when pressing down the kickstart slightly and lightly, getting the pistons in position for an actual kick through. Little tiny kickback, an equally tiny puff of smoke out the exhaust.

 

[baz]

My Lucas Rita is over 4 decades old
It's never kicked back ever
I recently changed to a Rex's speed shop Rita replacement
That doesn't kick back either

 

[motoalchemist]

I have trispark on all three of my commandos. i ran boyer for 10 years and it was ok, there were one or two failures over the years. but the ease of starting with a trispark makes it worth it

 

[Schwany]

Never had a kick back from a TriSpark. I just rebuilt an engine and it fired up first kick session and started idling without dying stone cold. I think I got the TriSpark set right on the money for this engine following in the static timing directions using the LED. Hard to get that LED out and 2mm more bit on the money. It is worth the anal effort to do it though. Something else that works for me is a big 3 ohm 45K volt dual firing coil typically used on Harleys. Using iridium spark plugs and MSD wires I can see the spark in the sunlight when playing with the TriSpark test feature. I'm easily entertained obviously.

Edit: When I made that post above it was the first time I started a newly rebuilt engine. Now that it has a few miles on it the compression is up and it's kind of a bear to kick if not perfectly lined up after TDC. A weak kick will kick back if the 0006 TriSpark ignition is at around 34 degrees BTDC static timed, which is where it ended up when my rotor moved a little because of user error not tightening the rotor fastener down hard enough and not using blue thread locker. Anyway a hard kick is required on a high compression engine.

I have days where I wish I'd left the engine alone with the dished pistons in it. It was a lot easier to start that way, lol

 

[ludwig]

I got one of the first Trisparks and plotted the advance curve. Before posting it here, I asked Kelly for confirmation. It definitely had no ignition ATDC.(a search will probably find it) When it packed up after a few months, he offered me an 'improved' version if I would lay up $ 75. Not my idea of a warranty, so I declined the offer.

 

[Onder]

<Anyway a hard kick is required on a high compression engine.>
Same here. I think a lot of this kickback stuff is related to those of us
who don't wear lead boots. Once hot I can sometimes not even move
the kicker. 8.5 to 1 pistons make a lot of sense. Too late in my case.

 

[ILLF8ED]

I had a TriSpark die after 2000 miles. Maybe an early one and the problem cured now, but I would not trust one again. Have the electronics in the engine case with that heat makes no sense to me. That’s how the electronics industry does a rapid life cycle on semiconductors….heat and vibration….1000 hours is considered a pass.

 

[marshg246]

I had a TriSpark die after 2000 miles. Maybe an early one and the problem cured now, but I would not trust one again. Have the electronics in the engine case with that heat makes no sense to me. That’s how the electronics industry does a rapid life cycle on semiconductors….heat and vibration….1000 hours is considered a pass.

Many mount a Boyer or others above the head under the tank - I bet that's hotter!

 

[Onder]

It is hotter than hell's hinge pins in the points cavity. Unless the EI bits are specifically made for a hot environment the remote box seems the way to go.

 

[Fast Eddie]

It is hotter than hell's hinge pins in the points cavity. Unless the EI bits are specifically made for a hot environment…

I think they probably are.

As are many things these days, like coil packs that mount directly to spark plugs and are buried deep in the heads of DOHC motors.

Looking at coils as we do (oil filled to keep ‘em cool) that seems crazy. But millions of vehicles are fine. The tech is different.

 

[cash]

Best invest you’ve made in the old girl IMO!

Don’t bin that old stuff Dave… some schmuck will buy it !!

You might need it if the Tri-spark Fails, and they do.