shock proof gear oil

[Triton Thrasher]

How tough is it to steer that thing? The steering assembly weigh at least 500 pounds.

Nowadays they have power steering.

Back then, the power was in the driver.

Does it run on gasoline? Ones in the U.K. used a tractor grade of kerosene, after starting and warming up on petrol (gasoline).

 

[alan hodge]

yes, this one originally started on gasoline then when engine get hot turn off gas and switch valve to kerosene..original manifold was toast so had to get repop but they only make gasoline ones gas tank has about 3 gallon gasoline compartment and about 12 gallon kerosene compartment with separate filler caps......putting new radiator hoses and fan belt on was a bitch! to put new belt on had to drop cranking bracket and unbolt radiator and move it forward a few inches then loop belt over fan blades and turn crankshaft pulley to tighten I knew after I learned to work on this I could do anything so I built my Commando from a basketcase and found out it was just as aggravating....and rewarding when done PS my mom told me that the tractor cost as much as 2 new Ford sedans and when the flatbed truck brought it to the farm folks from all over came to gawk at it...it was used to plow and plant and cut wheat during WWII and also to run a sawmill with the big pulley on the side I only start it up and drive it up the street it drives the neighbor's dogs crazy...in my mind I can see my great grandfather Walter V Smith and grandfather Sinclair Smith smiling down on me whenever I fire it up...

 

[dguzzi]

Its a sweet masterpiece! If the fuel lasts, might run a generator off the PTO belt, or water pump, or any of that stuff...

 

[dguzzi]

I meant to say, I asked Redline about using it (heavy) in a Norton, they said it would be just fine. Of course they may not know Norton. I have that letter here somewhere.

 

[1up3down]

Well, I am with our Jim Comstock on using transmission oil in my gearbox.
For years he has been touring two up on his Commando with tranny oil in there, you know him and his work, I trust him.
Jim feels that it lubricates better throughout the gearbox better than thick oil, I like the much easier way it shifts.

 

[gortnipper]

I used to run normal 90w until my rebuild when I switched to Lightweight Shockproof. But after reading Jim's comments below and doing some digging which found some conflicting reviews, I switched again and am now running Redline MT90 since it is GL-4.

I only used Redline Shockproof for a year. I don't remember what weight it was or even if there were different weights at that time. I would guess it was 15 years ago.
It did stop any migration of the oil down the input shaft, but when I found the bushing was loose and pulled it apart I found the outer bushings were dry and the shaft was blue from heat. I went back to ATF and have stayed with it since.

If it's good enough for the manual trans in this, it's good enough for me.
View attachment 12992

 

[Onder]

What is the current view of GL-4 v GL-5 in a standard box. Was there not some worry about the bronze being attacked by the GL-5 or is this ancient history and or old wives tales?

 

[jseng1]

Touring in top gear is not a valid gear oil test because all the gears are free wheeling with no load on the teeth. In top gear the only load your tranny is seeing is on the main shaft bearings. City riding and racing are the way to test for gear wear. It should be easy to compare wear properties of AT fluid to heavy gear oil. Its all about film strength vs shock loads. What provides more film strength? Thin oil or thicker oil?

I've never seen any effect of GL4 or GL5 oil on the bronze bushings.

 

[Kvinnhering]

View attachment 15313

Touring in top gear is not a valid gear oil test because all the gears are free wheeling with no load on the teeth. In top gear the only load your tranny is seeing is on the main shaft bearings. City riding and racing are the way to test for gear wear. It should be easy to compare wear properties of AT fluid to heavy gear oil. Its all about film strength vs shock loads. What provides more film strength? Thin oil or thicker oil?

I've never seen any effect of GL4 or GL5 oil on the bronze bushings.

Do you mean that there is normal wear on the picture below? 16,000 km on public roads only, but with a lot of gear changes due to winding roads. Approximately 60+ on the rear wheel (dyno test).

Have only used thick gear oil on the gearbox during this period.

 

[kommando]

Do you mean that there is normal wear on the picture below? 16,000 km on public roads only, but with a lot of gear changes due to winding roads. Approximately 60+ on the rear wheel (dyno test).

Same wear pattern I have seen on every Norton Commando box including RGM close ratio, we need to see how the CNW gears perform as they plan to beat this type of wear on the flanks of the gears.

 

[jseng1]

View attachment 15313

Do you mean that there is normal wear on the picture below? 16,000 km on public roads only, but with a lot of gear changes due to winding roads. Approximately 60+ on the rear wheel (dyno test).

Have only used thick gear oil on the gearbox during this period.

I don't know if your photo indicates normal or abusive wear. Everyone rides differently and 60+ HP on the rear wheel with a lot of windy road shifting is going to wear gears in a gearbox that was originally designed for a much weaker engine (350cc single??)

I once put so much wear on 2nd gear that one of the teeth broke off - locking up and sending me into an intersection like I was riding a bucking bronco. Fortunately I made it home without destroying the entire gear cluster by some miracle. I could hear the 2nd gear clicking each time it revolved and jumped past the space of the missing tooth.

 

[Kvinnhering]

Same wear pattern I have seen on every Norton Commando box including RGM close ratio, we need to see how the CNW gears perform as they plan to beat this type of wear on the flanks of the gears.

Yes, it will be interesting to see the result with new gears and shafts from CNW. But the question is which type of oil is best until it happens.

 

[Fast Eddie]

I’ve used Redline gear oil for probably 15 years or more. In Triumphs I used to run their Super Lightweight stuff as recommended by a top triple engine guy who built the motors for the top lads. Top lads as in ‘hired hands’ with zero mechanical sympathy. He was full of praise for how the Redline oil looked after the boxes.
However, I felt it might be unnecessarily thin for road use and started using their Lightweight oil.
Personally, I remain pretty convinced by its protection properties. But in some gearboxes it gave a notchy / coarse feel. So I started trying different oils.
I had some Bel Ray Sport gear oil on the shelf for the 961 (as its wet clutch shares the gear oil like a HD Sportster that the Bel Ray is designed for) and had heard good reports about it. I put it in a box that was coarse with the Redline and it definitely made it feel smoother.
I now think Bel Ray Sport is likely to become my ‘standard’ gear oil in the shop.

https://www.belray.com/product/sport-transmission-fluid/

 

[Onder]

Not familiar with HD so is this really rather like an ATF oil? Otherwise why would they put it in the primary. I assume "transmission" means gearbox
or gearbox AND primary. In older gearboxes ATF or lightweight oil will likely leak out faster than one would like especially if you have a belt in
the primary.
Guess there is that trade off of making sure the sleeve gear is lubricated v. making sure the gear faces are cushioned.

 

[mdt-son]

Same wear pattern I have seen on every Norton Commando box including RGM close ratio, we need to see how the CNW gears perform as they plan to beat this type of wear on the flanks of the gears.

This has probably been commented several times in the past, however: I believe the gnawing marks seen on the tooth flanks are due to torsional vibration being transplanted from the crankshaft. It's like a chisel applied on rock. The oil film isn't necessarily lost, but the layer of hardness is probably made brittle by fatigue and teeths start to dig into the softer metal below the case-hardened surface.

Unfortunately I don't think CNW will have much success with improved gears until an effective torsion damper is incorporated in the drive train.
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/torsion-damper-in-the-drive-train.30139/

-Knut

 

[Fast Eddie]

Not familiar with HD so is this really rather like an ATF oil? Otherwise why would they put it in the primary. I assume "transmission" means gearbox
or gearbox AND primary. In older gearboxes ATF or lightweight oil will likely leak out faster than one would like especially if you have a belt in
the primary.
Guess there is that trade off of making sure the sleeve gear is lubricated v. making sure the gear faces are cushioned.

No, nothing like any ATF I’ve ever seen!

I believe it has friction modifiers for the clutch. Same as modern motorcycle oil. No relevance to our needs in this instance though.

 

[WZ507]

I’m in a camp similar to ‘mdt-son’, where he suggested above that short gear life is in part due due to a quality issue with the gears. Possibly the result of the wrong alloy steel, the wrong heat treatment or both. It is certainly possible to make a high quality gear for this application that exhibits long wear life. And there are certainly gears similar to the common Norton gears made for other marques that exhibit the same sort of premature spalling gear wear we’re discussing here.

Just thinking out loud about gear hardness, perhaps a manufacturer is putting 0.020” to 0.030” of case hardening on the gear, when in fact it requires 0.050” for long term survival. The gear will always have a soft ‘under belly’ beneath the hardened surface, and perhaps if the case is not thick enough, the hard surface incrementally deflects into the softer underbelly and over the course of time small ruptures of the case occur and result in the spalling type wear pattern we see? If this is actually happening, I don’t think we can lubricate your way around such an issue.

Earlier in this thread the subject of HD and common oil in primary and tranny came up. Tying the subjects of common primary/tranny oil and high quality gears together, consider the gears Andrews makes for Harley Sportsters (read the description of the product on the right page [4 speed] at the link below, and turn the page if you want to read a little more about their products).

https://rssd.cld.bz/Andrews-Products-Catalogue/28/

Andrews simply makes the best products on state-of-the-art equipment and they perform stellar – you simply cannot buy a better gear for a HD Sportster. I’ve intentionally steered the conversation off target here (from Norton to HD) to make the case that readily available very high quality gears (that don’t spall) exist for specific marques, and feel confident that if Andrews were manufacturing Norton gearbox innards we wouldn’t be having this conversation. I hope that CNW’s gear undertaking results in a product of similar quality to Andrews, and leaves the issue of spalled gear faces behind.

In closing want to add that the HD Sportster gear box/primary drive performs just fine with ATF (Dexron II, no spalling type wear), although the factory always recommended oil, and suspect that oil would, in the final analysis, ultimately result in less wear over extremely long use cycles. The majority of teams campaigning HD XRs (same 4-speed gearbox used in Sportster since 1957, but with 90+ HP) in flat track racing also employed ATF in the gear boxes and tranny with no wear concerns (admittedly this is not a high mileage use, but is nevertheless a brutal short-term use). And by the way, for many decades Sportsters never had any form of cush-drive or compensator sprocket, yet the gears held up fine. My $0.02.

 

[gortnipper]

What is the current view of GL-4 v GL-5 in a standard box. Was there not some worry about the bronze being attacked by the GL-5 or is this ancient history and or old wives tales?

"The main difference between GL-4 and GL-5 gear oils is the amount of EP additives. Sulphur/Phosphorus containing products are used as EP-additive. This additive has the purpose to prevent the occurrence of micro-welds on the gear flanks at the local high temperatures which prevail in EP circumstances (temperatures well in excess of 800℃!) GL-5 has roughly twice the amount of EP additives compared to GL-4, which is why it is often used in high-pressure circumstances such as in a front axle and rear axle differential.

Sulphur/Phosphorus additives however have an unfavourable property: they can react aggressively towards bronze and copper. This can be disastrous for the synchromesh rings of a gearbox. Therefore it is not recommended to use GL-5 in a gearbox unless the manufacturer allows this.

To conclude:

• GL-4 is suitable for hypoid gear service when they are under severe service but are without shock loading.

• GL-5 is suitable for hypoid gear service under severe service and shock loads and not for use in a gearbox."

https://www.rymax-lubricants.com/blog/the-differences-between-gl-4-and-gl-5/

 

[TheFrib]

Honda makes a special tranny lube for 2cycles. Good stuff. All I use. Norton,bsa,trident.

 

[SteveA]

That last picture probably shows off why you need 10 gallons of gear oil!

In Europe at least that rear axle arrangement is know as a Portal Axle, and certain 4x4s used in rocky and mountainous country have them for huge ground clearance, but it gives you a gear box, differential and two wheel gearboxes to lubricate!

I think the belt drive was fairly common on tractors of this age and through the '50s. certainly when I was a boy on the farm in England most of the older tractors had it as well as the rear PTO.

The Kerosene was known in England as TVO, Tractor Vapour Oil.

Back in the military in the '70s I knew a guy who grew up in rural Northern Ireland. In his teenage years he came by a Jaguar SS100 that had twin fuel tanks, to run it he bought a small can of petrol (gas) and put it in one tank and 'liberated' low taxed TVO from the farm to put into the other tank!

(surely this is much more interesting than another oil thread?)