What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...

Well, I thought about posting, then decided not to, as this thread gets people a bit hot under the collar. Really, please don't be offended either way, its just an opinion, and I dont often give them online, but here goes-

There is really nothing here for me, but I guess I am probably not their target market. An old fashioned 47 year old, who appreciates old tech and engineering dead ends. I dont want touch-screens, but understand that many (even many my age) do.

The ManxR looks very Ducati. Not surprising I guess. ("Temu Ducati" is an amusing thing I read online!) Maybe it will sell, especially if engine and handling are spot on. But it looks like an AI output of "Show me a generic, expensive looking modern sports motorcycle. Give it clean lines, and no aero. And lots of little parallel plastic bits, cos people like that"

The Manx is ugly. Looks like a scooter. Again may sell. But that silly front half fairing? And the daft face??

The Atlas is pretty bad looking, generic, even cheap?? Again, may sell, and looks a bit like AT/ Tenere/ etc. Design by committee, and I expect not available for a while in either form? Who knows. But that thing in orange is abysmal... Really- an embarassment for Norton.

And the logo?? Why rabbitting on about "Heritage", "History", "Brand" etc, to release stuff that is literally none of that? Again, a bit cringey...

(And the orange bike with the crap logo together are a perfect storm)

I totally dont understand. But marketing, youth audiences, social media or motorcycles are not my area of expertise. But it feels very like this is their "Jaguar Moment".

The the old guard/ brand followers/ loyal of the past be damned.

(Remember tho the initial Triumph/ BSA triple re-brand, and subsequent re-design? I wonder if they back pedal on the logo.... Not that that makes any difference really)

It just doesnt feel very "cool", to me anyway. In a 70s/ 80s/ maybe even 90s idea of what cool is. Nothing for me here (bar a tangible disappointment), but I will watch with interest and wish them well.

Would like to see it succeed, but the launch is not really talking to me, personally.
Andy
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
If Brian Gillen is to be taken at his word Voodooo, the Manx produces 130+ Nm of torque - 75% of (peak torque) which is available at 3800 revs. The bike is designed/configured to be ridden between 3-7K revs (low to mid range). The Penagale V4R reaches 111 Nm or torque at 12k revs.

On face value, it appears that they are trying to market a real world superbike for the road, as opposed to a high revving track bike that can’t possible be used on the road.

If they suceed, might that be an attractive proposition? I guess only time and some decent road tests will tell.
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It must be frightening for bike manufactures to hand their brand new creation to some opinionated idiot of a magazine road tester , and there are plenty out there . They have the power to completely slaughter sales with just a few paragraphs of their own opinion instead of being objective and neutral with their comments. I remember well a road test in a weekly biking newspaper where the so called expert came a cropper on a cruiser by decking it out on a tight bend and the complaining the thing had no ground clearance , he always tested sports bikes nuff said.
There is only one journalist I would ever trust to write up a fair and honest report and he is Alan Cathcart who has been around for donkeys years and ridden nearly ever bike going and that includes many race bikes , he is a well respected and genuine road/ race rider with a world wide view of motorcycles and always gives a fair and honest report.
 
AndyDMC said:
Well, I thought about posting, then decided not to, as this thread gets people a bit hot under the collar. Really, please don't be offended either way, its just an opinion, and I dont often give them online, but here goes-

There is really nothing here for me, but I guess I am probably not their target market. An old fashioned 47 year old, who appreciates old tech and engineering dead ends. I dont want touch-screens, but understand that many (even many my age) do.

The ManxR looks very Ducati. Not surprising I guess. ("Temu Ducati" is an amusing thing I read online!) Maybe it will sell, especially if engine and handling are spot on. But it looks like an AI output of "Show me a generic, expensive looking modern sports motorcycle. Give it clean lines, and no aero. And lots of little parallel plastic bits, cos people like that"

The Manx is ugly. Looks like a scooter. Again may sell. But that silly front half fairing? And the daft face??

The Atlas is pretty bad looking, generic, even cheap?? Again, may sell, and looks a bit like AT/ Tenere/ etc. Design by committee, and I expect not available for a while in either form? Who knows. But that thing in orange is abysmal... Really- an embarassment for Norton.

And the logo?? Why rabbitting on about "Heritage", "History", "Brand" etc, to release stuff that is literally none of that? Again, a bit cringey...

(And the orange bike with the crap logo together are a perfect storm)

I totally dont understand. But marketing, youth audiences, social media or motorcycles are not my area of expertise. But it feels very like this is their "Jaguar Moment".

The the old guard/ brand followers/ loyal of the past be damned.

(Remember tho the initial Triumph/ BSA triple re-brand, and subsequent re-design? I wonder if they back pedal on the logo.... Not that that makes any difference really)

It just doesnt feel very "cool", to me anyway. In a 70s/ 80s/ maybe even 90s idea of what cool is. Nothing for me here (bar a tangible disappointment), but I will watch with interest and wish them well.

Would like to see it succeed, but the launch is not really talking to me, personally.
Andy
Click to expand...
You admit your not interested in a modern superbike, so Norton didn't design it for you. The future Commando 'the third platform' range may be of more interest.
 
peebee said:
It must be frightening for bike manufactures to hand their brand new creation to some opinionated idiot of a magazine road tester , and there are plenty out there . They have the power to completely slaughter sales with just a few paragraphs of their own opinion instead of being objective and neutral with their comments. I remember well a road test in a weekly biking newspaper where the so called expert came a cropper on a cruiser by decking it out on a tight bend and the complaining the thing had no ground clearance , he always tested sports bikes nuff said.
There is only one journalist I would ever trust to write up a fair and honest report and he is Alan Cathcart who has been around for donkeys years and ridden nearly ever bike going and that includes many race bikes , he is a well respected and genuine road/ race rider with a world wide view of motorcycles and always gives a fair and honest report.
Click to expand...
Agreed peebee - but If the bike is good enough, it will show through; consensus will out. If it’s a great road bike I think it’ll be reported as such. If it’s not then it’ll get slated and so it should be.

An aside. We here are majority traditional bike enthusiasts of a certain age; indeed most of us own 961’s (the last true traditional Nortons?). Worse, some of us comment from the vintage Norton site.

We have personal hangovers from the Garner era and those resulting from Norton/TVS growing pains. We are, potentially, the worst group of people on the planet to judge a modern Norton relaunch.

I think our opinions will be way less representative than that of the majority of bike journos! My thoughts only.
 
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Bevelheadmhr said:
You admit your not interested in a modern superbike, so Norton didn't design it for you. The future Commando 'the third platform' range may be of more interest.
Click to expand...
Yes, agreed, am not the market.

However, I also was not the market for the previous V4/SS, but was quite "proud" as a multi-Norton owner that that was considered (rightly or wrongly) a desirable bike.

And I did think it was good looking. As most did. And the image of the machine was good for the brand as it was. (If perhaps not the machine itself, the price, or the story behind it)

Similarly, I wasn't the market for the Superlight, Atlas or Ranger, but I did "support" these as Norton models. And a trick was missed by not taking these to market at the time.

The 3rd platform may be of interest to me yes, but not as a buyer.

Just my view of course, and its a good discussion. I am very interested to see how the wider motorcycling public reacts.

Andy
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
If Brian Gillen is to be taken at his word Voodooo, the Manx produces 130+ Nm of torque - 75% of (peak torque) which is available at 3800 revs. The bike is designed/configured to be ridden between 3-7K revs (low to mid range). The Penagale V4R reaches 111 Nm or torque at 12k revs.

On face value, it appears that they are trying to market a real world superbike for the road, as opposed to a high revving track bike that can’t possible be used on the road.

If they suceed, might that be an attractive proposition? I guess only time and some decent road tests will tell.
Click to expand...
Not sure why you continue to call me Voodooo.

Who buys a sports / superbike to ride at 7k rpm?
Oh I know an old man who can’t handle one.

If you’re going to compare a v4 Norton to a Ducati v4, perhaps you should include the type of rider too?

Curious how they are handling the extra heat from the rear cylinders.
 
kev said:
Just as a reminder, what Garner proposed as the Atlas Vs TVS....

https://postimages.org/
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IMG_7564.jpeg



Cookie cutter styling... ✅

 
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That which looks like a bug is not for me! These look like all the other bikes that look like bugs to me.

There are very few motorcycles built today that look like a motorcycle to me.

That said, if you like the modern look, I'm happy for you 👍

I've never owned a new motorcycle and I've only every bought two bikes that weren't basket cases or barn finds for rebuild - my 74 Commando and my 74 Trident.

So, my opinion is actually silly to state here (like many of the opinions in this thread :)).
 
peebee said:
It must be frightening for bike manufactures to hand their brand new creation to some opinionated idiot of a magazine road tester , and there are plenty out there . They have the power to completely slaughter sales with just a few paragraphs of their own opinion instead of being objective and neutral with their comments. I remember well a road test in a weekly biking newspaper where the so called expert came a cropper on a cruiser by decking it out on a tight bend and the complaining the thing had no ground clearance , he always tested sports bikes nuff said.
There is only one journalist I would ever trust to write up a fair and honest report and he is Alan Cathcart who has been around for donkeys years and ridden nearly ever bike going and that includes many race bikes , he is a well respected and genuine road/ race rider with a world wide view of motorcycles and always gives a fair and honest report.
Click to expand...
The days of honest reviews have been over since the advent of "influencers" and the like. The magazines needed advertising dollars, so they also went by the wayside.

Don't expect the truth from anyone about these bikes, and the sales numbers will be the real "tail of the tape". If you look at the Instagram page, the most commented thing about the bikes is everyone likes the "colors"....but in this case, shiny objects won't overcome the 1980s's looks
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
T7 is not the competition concours.
Click to expand...
I see that... only a 585cc twin.... very weak 🕡

Perhaps this is closer in displacement?

www.aprilia.com

Tuareg: Enduro For Adventure Enthusiasts | Aprilia US

Aprilia Tuareg motorcycle: road-going, aggressively designed enduro for adventure enthusiasts. Browse versions, specifications and configure your model.
www.aprilia.com www.aprilia.com

Do tell? What IS the competition? Or had you not even read the specs before launching your response?
 
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NorTriDuc said:
Not sure why you continue to call me Voodooo.

Who buys a sports / superbike to ride at 7k rpm?
Oh I know an old man who can’t handle one.

If you’re going to compare a v4 Norton to a Ducati v4, perhaps you should include the type of rider too?

Curious how they are handling the extra heat from the rear cylinders.
Click to expand...
I regularly ride with guys on modern superbikes. A couple of them are quick by anybody’s standard. They readily admit to using only a fraction of the bike’s performance on the road - for obvious reasons.

Most of us have experienced this. Admit it or not, most are left feeling that they’re not using the bike to its full potential - as it was designed.

Norton is betting that there’ll be way more fun to be had by stacking the mid range, making the ManxR more usable for the road. A simple proposition really. I suspect (literally) nothing to do with the riding prowess of prospective owners.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
I regularly ride with guys on modern superbikes. A couple of them are quick by anybody’s standard. They readily admit to using only a fraction of the bike’s performance on the road - for obvious reasons.

Most of us have experienced this. Admit it or not, most are left feeling that they’re not using the bike to its full potential - as it was designed.

Norton is betting that there’ll be way more fun to be had by stacking the mid range, making the ManxR more usable for the road. A simple proposition really. I suspect (literally) nothing to do with the riding prowess of prospective owners.
Click to expand...
So let’s make a 200+ hp bike and only use a fraction of it.
What’s the point.

That’s like having a beautiful wife and not making love to her so the next guy has all the fun.
 
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