What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...

Amazed to think someone expected to find details of a bike still under development on Google. When Triumph relaunched in the early 90's, it was a complete surprise, the bike press didn't have a clue what John Bloor had been working on for years. Similarly, all major manufacturers keep genuinely new models secret as long as they can. Norton / TVS are no different.

I'm sure Norton would like to make money by selling to Donnington era owners, but given their limited resources, they have to give priority to their own production needs and supplying their dealers.
 
Bevelheadmhr said:
Amazed to think someone expected to find details of a bike still under development on Google. When Triumph relaunched in the early 90's, it was a complete surprise, the bike press didn't have a clue what John Bloor had been working on for years. Similarly, all major manufacturers keep genuinely new models secret as long as they can. Norton / TVS are no different.

I'm sure Norton would like to make money by selling to Donnington era owners, but given their limited resources, they have to give priority to their own production needs and supplying their dealers.
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It’s 2024, the internet age, it’s not that hard.


When Bloor started, there wasn’t such a thing as the internet and it was easier to hide things.
 
Norton elected to keep the details of future bikes concealed - I guess until a juncture at which they deem appropriate/ optimum from a marketing perspective. They explained why. Their approach ain’t gonna change. No matter how much the unwashed masses protesteth!🙃
 
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First mention we’ve had of that timeframe for sales partnerships I think.

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C’mon boys, you can do it - put those axes down and let the sparks settle for a bit!🤣

We’ve just heard from BevelHead info that he got from his dealer:

- The 961 has started to sell well - the dealers have asked them to retain production.
- Despite a couple of anomalies, reliability looks great so far. 50 961’s out from one dealer - one minor return only. Positive reports all over the internet.
- Sighting of pre production models by dealer. Sports bikes on the way - ‘think Ducati V4’ was the quote.
- 450 for the Asian market. Should help provide some real volume and point Norton towards profit.
- Adv on the way, to tap into that burgeoning market.
- High profile CEO hired to implement overseas market.
- NEC around the corner.

Gotta be something at least a little optimistic to discuss there right? Or, as we’ve done, we could go straight back to:

Norton

- hasn’t advertised new models.
- spares availability is poor.
- is too slow.
- treated us badly.
- isn’t British or iconic anyway.

Do we really think ‘It is …. folly to even try to put a positive spin on …”.

Surely we’re not where our vintage friend says we are? Tell me it ain’t so!?✋😢🤚
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
C’mon boys, you can do it - put those axes down and let the sparks settle for a bit!🤣

We’ve just heard from BevelHead info that he got from his dealer:

- The 961 has started to sell well - the dealers have asked them to retain production.
- Despite a couple of anomalies, reliability looks great so far. 50 961’s out from one dealer - one minor return only. Positive reports all over the internet.
- Sighting of pre production models by dealer. Sports bikes on the way - ‘think Ducati V4’ was the quote.
- 450 for the Asian market. Should help provide some real volume and point Norton towards profit.
- Adv on the way, to tap into that burgeoning market.
- High profile CEO hired to implement overseas market.
- NEC around the corner.

Gotta be something at least a little optimistic to discuss there right? Or, as we’ve done, we could go straight back to:

Norton:

- hasn’t advertised new models.
- spares availability is poor.
- is too slow.
- treated us badly.
- isn’t British or iconic anyway.

Do we really think ‘It is …. folly to even try to put a positive spin on …”.

Surely we’re not where our vintage friend says we are? Tell me it ain’t so!?✋😢🤚
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You know me.
Debbie Downer.

I don’t see the excitement. Until I see real world bikes that can actually be bought and have a solid reputation AND available parts, I’ll continue to be Negative Nancy.

Oh and they better be made in the UK with parts made in the UK, by UK workers. Not India.

TVs Norton’s been telling us about dealers outside of England for nearly 2 years and not a single word or act of this.
Smoke n mirrors.
 
Voodooo said:
Oh and they better be made in the UK with parts made in the UK, by UK workers. Not India.
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Well, for the most part I think I agree, but with obvious qualifications.
I will be happy if the new Nortons are composed significantly of UK components.
You know, engines and engine components, chassis, body components, etc.
I can live with suspension from Olins, brakes from Brembo, excellent EFI from Keihin, sensors and electrics from Bosch....
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Norton elected to keep the details of future bikes concealed - I guess until a juncture at which they deem appropriate/ optimum from a marketing perspective. They explained why. Their approach ain’t gonna change. No matter how much the unwashed masses unwashed masses!🙃
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Stephen_Spencer said:
Yep, agreed 74ok - everyone gets their say. Genuine question though, what is ‘obvious and evident right away’?

‘It is also folly to even try to put a positive spin, on what is even obvious & evident right away, to most.”
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Stephen_Spencer said:
Yep, agreed 74ok - everyone gets their say. Genuine question though, what is ‘obvious and evident right away’?

‘It is also folly to even try to put a positive spin, on what is even obvious & evident right away, to most.”
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While all three of those bikes have been overhauled or redesigned by Norton since it was bought by TVS in 2020, there have been no outright new models introduced in the last four years. The new range will be, in that way, the first chance for TVS to make its mark on the Norton brand, although the degree to which it wants to imprint its own identity on the British marque remains to be seen.

'remains to be seen' ?? that rates a whatever - who cares alone, from most, by far

then if new folks come here, 'no parts' jumps out, then some folks sayin it all like it is , along with the obvious kool - aid spinners
 
BritTwit said:
Well, for the most part I think I agree, but with obvious qualifications.
I will be happy if the new Nortons are composed significantly of UK components.
You know, engines and engine components, chassis, body components, etc.
I can live with suspension from Olins, brakes from Brembo, excellent EFI from Keihin, sensors and electrics from Bosch....
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That’s something we all agree on.
 
74ok said:
'remains to be seen' ?? that rates a whatever - who cares alone, from most, by far
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Your opinion is certainly valid 74ok, but co opting ‘most, by far’ to your opinion may be a bit of a stretch mate. I’d be reluctant to base my opinion of modern Norton in the microcosm of this forum - in particular your small group of vintage enthusiasts.;)

If I were to do the same (claim to represent the majority) I’d say that I believe that the overwhelming majority of Norton enthusiasts (worldwide) are likely very interested to see what Norton Birmingham will produce.

Of course it’s pretty easy to anecdotally re-brand Norton Birmingham to just ‘TVS’ as some do - a foreign Indian invader buying up a British manufacturer, ready to ‘imprint its own identity’ on our beloved marque.

My guess though is that there are 200+ British employees in Solihull, England, working pretty damn hard to make sure that this time Norton Motorcycles does’nt fail as it has in the past. It’s also my guess that the TVS leadership is well aware of the value of maintaining the integrity of the Norton brand. Time will tell if they succeed.

‘…whatever - who cares…………..’?
 
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I personally can’t square the circle that the 961 or V4 is selling well with the number of used, and even delivery mileage only bikes, that seem to be advertised for long periods without selling.

But if we ignore that, and assume it’s true that they are selling well, then I’d suggest that Norton need to do some serious reflecting on pricing. I’d argue that sales volumes of 961s are directly correlated to the hefty discounts.

The market is therefore speaking loud and clear as to what it perceives the value of these bikes to be. Same argument with the V4s where even at £12k+ under RRP they are still languishing in dealerships.

Something is NOT super premium just because you stick a silly high price on it. Market value is determined by what the customer base is willing to pay. Period. Vincent learned this when they went bust in 1955. A lesson re-learned by Hesketh 30 years later.

But what is the customer base? There are only so many folk well heeled and interested enough in a Norton to buy as a showpiece (and there will be fewer of those in the U.K. over the coming years under Keir Stalin’s dictatorship). Like it or not, Dr Bob has to realise that his volume market is in fact THE MOTORCYCLIST :eek: !!

So if Norton are to succeed with future models, I sincerely hope they reflect seriously on this.
 
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Voodoo, I love reading your ramblings they sometimes make I larf , just wonder if it's just Norton you are down on or is it every thing else in this crazy world. I heard on the grapevine that the only difference between you and a battery is that a battery has a positive side. 🤣 🤣 🤣
 
Fast Eddie said:
I personally can’t square the circle that the 961 or V4 is selling well with the number of used, and even delivery mileage only bikes, that seem to be advertised for long periods without selling.

But if we ignore that, and assume it’s true that they are selling well, then I’d suggest that Norton need to do some serious reflecting on pricing. I’d argue that sales volumes of 961s are directly correlated to the hefty discounts.

The market is therefore speaking loud and clear as to what it perceives the value of these bikes to be. Same argument with the V4s where even at £12k+ under RRP they are still languishing in dealerships.

Something is NOT super premium just because you stick a silly high price on it. Market value is determined by what the customer base is willing to pay. Period. Vincent learned this when they went bust in 1955. A lesson re-learned by Hesketh 30 years later.

But what is the customer base? There are only so many folk well heeled and interested enough in a Norton to buy as a showpiece (and there will be fewer of those in the U.K. over the coming years under Keir Stalin’s dictatorship). Like it or not, Dr Bob has to realise that his volume market is in fact THE MOTORCYCLIST :eek: !!

So if Norton are to succeed with future models, I sincerely hope they reflect seriously on this.
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Interesting with the V4SV FE - reckon we hit the nail on the head with people buying them quickly when money was cheap and regretting their decision at leisure, when the economy started to bite. Or received them to recoup deposit/full payment to Garner and have moved on.

Don’t think anyone would claim that the V4 was selling well though, but who knows how many Norton expected to sell. Best guess is about 40 so far - not that I trust ‘How many left’!

No doubt Norton doing various promotional discounts helped to get things moving for the 961. Not unheard of I suppose. Don’t think they discounted the anniversary models though and they seem to be moving ok, so who knows. Still reckon they’re likely to discontinue the 961 when new bikes hit the market.

Pricing of the new bikes is certainly key and they’ve hinted at a range to meet various pockets. They clearly intend to stay on the premium side though, so those pockets are still gonna need to be quite deep - in Europe/US etc anyway. As we’ve discussed, the volume sales may come from the Asian market and the smaller capacity machines likely to badge out of Honsur.
 
peebee said:
Voodoo, I love reading your ramblings they sometimes make I larf , just wonder if it's just Norton you are down on or is it every thing else in this crazy world. I heard on the grapevine that the only difference between you and a battery is that a battery has a positive side. 🤣 🤣 🤣
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I know Voodoo.

He has many bikes from other makes, plus two Nortons he bought new.

He enjoys them all. As well as some very nice cars.

Except for the two Nortons he bought new. Which he daren’t use through inability to purchase spare parts, despite trying hard for 3 years. 3 years in which countless hours were spent trying to buy parts and promise after promise was broken.

So to answer your question, it’s just Norton, or more specifically, TVS Norton he’s down on.

Can you blame him ?
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
Interesting with the V4SV FE - reckon we hit the nail on the head with people buying them quickly when money was cheap and regretting their decision at leisure, when the economy started to bite. Or received them to recoup deposit/full payment to Garner and have moved on.

Don’t think anyone would claim that the V4 was selling well though, but who knows how many Norton expected to sell. Best guess is about 40 so far - not that I trust ‘How many left’!

No doubt Norton doing various promotional discounts helped to get things moving for the 961. Not unheard of I suppose. Don’t think they discounted the anniversary models though and they seem to be moving ok, so who knows. Still reckon they’re likely to discontinue the 961 when new bikes hit the market.

Pricing of the new bikes is certainly key and they’ve hinted at a range to meet various pockets. They clearly intend to stay on the premium side though, so those pockets are still gonna need to be quite deep - in Europe/US etc anyway. As we’ve discussed, the volume sales may come from the Asian market and the smaller capacity machines likely to badge out of Honsur.
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I think you mean the LE range as they refer to it?

Again, as you say, selling ‘well’ is subjective and depends what you’re comparing against.

They only made 50 of each, and they’re still for sale, with finished bikes sat on dealership floors 10 months after launch.
 
Fast Eddie said:
I think you mean the LE range as they refer to it?

Again, as you say, selling ‘well’ is subjective and depends what you’re comparing against.

They only made 50 of each, and they’re still for sale, with finished bikes sat on dealership floors 10 months after launch.
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OK FE - nothing positive happening with 961 sales! Check ✔️🤣

Maybe we should make the comparison point for 961 current sales, against the number some on this forum declared in the past that Norton would sell!! Now you’ve gotta admit that makes things look just a tad rosier!😁
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
OK FE - nothing positive happening with 961 sales! Check ✔️🤣

Maybe we should make the comparison point for 961 current sales, against the number some on this forum declared in the past that Norton would sell!! Now you’ve gotta admit that makes things look just a tad rosier!😁
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I think I’ve already said, 961 sales do look better, which is great. And I hope Norton reflect on the volume / price relationship.
 
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