What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...

Stephen_Spencer said:
That’s definitely a circular argument Voodooo!🤣

By that measure Norton can never claim to be ‘Made in the UK’ and that’s before they start overseas production/assembly. Nor can Ducati claim to be Italian made by that measure and they’ve already got overseas assembly plants.

Good luck telling an Italian rider sat atop his Bologna bullet that his bike’s not Italian:oops:!
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Who ever said modern Ducatis were made in Italy?
Ducati is owed by Lamborghini, who is owed by Audi who is owned by Volkswagen.
What point are you trying to make? That Ducatis are made in Germany?

I can tell you that the 3 new Ducatis I own don’t say made in India any where on them. And 2 of them I had stripped down and many of the parts are made in Italy or Germany.

How many of the parts do you think the TVS Norton will say made in England or India on them?
We already know many of it is made in China.
 
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With reference to the statement above ''We already know many of it is made in China.''

What parts of the TVS 961 are made in China?
 
Voodooo said:
Who ever said modern Ducatis were made in Italy?
Ducati is owed by Lamborghini, who is owed by Audi who is owned by Volkswagen.
What point are you trying to make? That Ducatis are made in Germany?

I can tell you that the 3 new Ducatis I own don’t say made in India any where on them. And 2 of them I had stripped down and many of the parts are made in Italy or Germany.

How many of the parts do you think the TVS Norton will say made in England or India on them?
We already know many of it is made in China.
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A bit of irony Voodooo that recognises that we’ve been around this buoy before😂, a lot! You’ll remember this debate went around in circles for an age.

I think the general conclusion was that Norton will always be British, ‘in the same way’ as Harley and McDonalds will always be American.

Although I’m quite happy that the sticker on my bike that says Made in England is entirely appropriate;)!
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
A bit of irony Voodooo that recognises that we’ve been around this buoy before😂, a lot! You’ll remember this debate went around in circles for an age.

I think the general conclusion was that Norton will always be British, ‘in the same way’ as Harley and McDonalds will always be American.

Although I’m quite happy that the sticker on my bike that says Made in England is entirely appropriate;)!
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Ok if you like false advertising and misrepresentation.

But you keep saying that Norton will be making its “ premium bikes” in the UK.
How do you know and at what point does it become made in the UK or elsewhere?
Let’s face it, the 961 isn’t even close be being made in the UK.
China made motor, carbon and electronics.
Italian made brakes and controls. But are they?
Swedish made suspension. But are they?

How “premium” can it be if it’s not made by the original company/ manufacturer and instead sublet to an outside manufacturer from another land?
Today’s world is more like “assembled in ….” With global made parts. That’s not premium to me.
 
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Voodooo said:
Ok if you like false advertising and misrepresentation.

But you keep saying that Norton will be making its “ premium bikes” in the UK.
How do you know and at what point does it become made in the UK or elsewhere?
Let’s face it, the 961 isn’t even close be being made in the UK.
China made motor, carbon and electronics.
Italian made brakes and controls. But are they?
Swedish made suspension. But are they?

How “premium” can it be if it’s not made by the original company/ manufacturer and instead sublet to an outside manufacturer from another land?
Today’s world is more like “assembled in ….” With global made parts. That’s not premium to me.
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It must be true though, it says it on the side of my bike! Four times!!;)
 
Of course TVS Norton's have Brembo brakes (Italian) and Ohlins suspension (Sweden), As for carbon fibre, my bike doesn't have any. As for the motor, what proof do you have that it's sourced from China? All or it? Or what parts.. cases, crank, head, conrods, pistons??
 
Bevelheadmhr said:
Of course TVS Norton's have Brembo brakes (Italian) and Ohlins suspension (Sweden), As for carbon fibre, my bike doesn't have any. As for the motor, what proof do you have that it's sourced from China? All or it? Or what parts.. cases, crank, head, conrods, pistons??
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Please don’t take this the wrong way. I don’t mean any disrespect, are you new to the 961?

Norton (Garner) sold the rights of the 961 to Jinlang years ago.

My point about the brembos and Ohlins was, I know what brand they are, but where are they manufactured?

 
Voodooo said:
Please don’t take this the wrong way. I don’t mean any disrespect, are you new to the 961?

Norton (Garner) sold the rights of the 961 to Jinlang years ago.

My point about the brembos and Ohlins was, I know what brand they are, but where are they manufactured?

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I have no dog in this fight, but IMHO, that article means almost nothing. Yes, there is a picture of two men shaking hands and a computer screen with an engine image - everything else is not conclusive in any way.

To me, this is telling: "Jinlang now claims that the deal with Garner was done in advance of the historic British marque falling into administration, meaning the engine deal is a separate case and almost a done deal in their eyes." Even Jinlang cannot firmly say that the deal was completed. And, "The website claims that a strategic cooperation agreement was signed which would see Jinlang take over the manufacture of the engines and the supply of parts to 961 owners worldwide." does not say the rights were sold, just that a "strategic cooperation agreement" reached - those are not the words used when selling rights!

As far as I am concerned, none of it matters. Look at all the famous "American" washing machines and refrigerator manufacturers - there ares a small number of manufacturers, they are not in the US, and when the final name goes on it's that product.

It's a global economy - even the US military that staunchly bought US only last century had to cave as the US actually makes little of what they need! Time to get over it, IMHO.
 
marshg246 said:
I have no dog in this fight, but IMHO, that article means almost nothing. Yes, there is a picture of two men shaking hands and a computer screen with an engine image - everything else is not conclusive in any way.

To me, this is telling: "Jinlang now claims that the deal with Garner was done in advance of the historic British marque falling into administration, meaning the engine deal is a separate case and almost a done deal in their eyes." Even Jinlang cannot firmly say that the deal was completed. And, "The website claims that a strategic cooperation agreement was signed which would see Jinlang take over the manufacture of the engines and the supply of parts to 961 owners worldwide." does not say the rights were sold, just that a "strategic cooperation agreement" reached - those are not the words used when selling rights!

As far as I am concerned, none of it matters. Look at all the famous "American" washing machines and refrigerator manufacturers - there ares a small number of manufacturers, they are not in the US, and when the final name goes on it's that product.

It's a global economy - even the US military that staunchly bought US only last century had to cave as the US actually makes little of what they need! Time to get over it, IMHO.
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I don’t write the news / articles.
It matters to those to whom it matters to.
 
👇😁👍

What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes... What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...
 
Clearly 961 engines are not made in China, they are at the least assembled in the UK factory, in small batches, from components sourced from the UK and beyond. Only Norton know the details of that supply chain. However, for brands that are, or want to be 'luxury' goods, then where those goods are made does matter to customers, and companies know it. HD still build their large capacity bikes in the US, it would be far cheaper to build them in the far East. But they don't because they know a large percentage of their customers would not buy a 'foreign' Harley. Ditto when VW & BMW bought Bentley and RR, much easier to move production to Germany, maybe slap a Greek temple on the front of a 7 Series and call it a RR. But they didn't, again because it would destroy the RR brand they just paid good money for.

For mass produced goods, where they are made may not matter much, but for high end luxury goods it certainly does. I doubt many TVS 961 owners in the UK would have bought one if they where built in India. I know I wouldn't.
 
marshg246 said:
Any votes for a thread shutdown?
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You want to shut down a thread that’s over 800 post long because why? You disagree with some of the statements?

You already said you don’t have any dog in the fight.

I can’t help what Garner did to Norton, or what website / magazine writer wrote.
It’s been mentioned many times in the past, but its perhaps new news to you?

I don’t get the point of why you’d want the thread shut down, the topic is

What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...​

We’re talking about Norton then and now, Good and bad.

I’d love for Norton to be British made and manufactured in the UK. But sadly the truth is, it won’t and can’t be.
I’m Sorry if the news of jinlang having the rights to the 961 motor upsets you. Were not the ones who sold it.

With TVS now owning Norton, you’d have to agree that they will be producing parts for the UK assembled bikes in India, and very possibly making even the higher end bikes with the Norton name on them.

I do have a dog in the fight, two of them in fact here in the USA.
I’d love to see a network of dealers here, but I highly doubt it’ll ever happen.
Not because of Garners smear and tarnished reputation, but because even when he was selling bikes here in the USA, the sales were very low and the advertising wasn’t even known. And guess what?
TVS has a very poor marketing and advertising department. Especially with how easy it is to advertise in todays internet age.
 
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Bevelheadmhr said:
Clearly 961 engines are not made in China, they are at the least assembled in the UK factory, in small batches, from components sourced from the UK and beyond. Only Norton know the details of that supply chain. However, for brands that are, or want to be 'luxury' goods, then where those goods are made does matter to customers, and companies know it. HD still build their large capacity bikes in the US, it would be far cheaper to build them in the far East. But they don't because they know a large percentage of their customers would not buy a 'foreign' Harley. Ditto when VW & BMW bought Bentley and RR, much easier to move production to Germany, maybe slap a Greek temple on the front of a 7 Series and call it a RR. But they didn't, again because it would destroy the RR brand they just paid good money for.

For mass produced goods, where they are made may not matter much, but for high end luxury goods it certainly does. I doubt many TVS 961 owners in the UK would have bought one if they where built in India. I know I wouldn't.
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Do you disagree that Harley has parts of its bikes made in China?
Harley’s top line of CVO bikes has parts made in China just like its cheapest model.

I’m not sure what your point is.
Why would it be hard to accept the fact that the 961 is made in China?
 
Voodooo said:
You want to shut down a thread that’s over 800 post long because why? You disagree with some of the statements?

You already said you don’t have any dog in the fight.

I can’t help what Garner did to Norton, or what website / magazine writer wrote.
It’s been mentioned many times in the past, but its perhaps new news to you?

I don’t get the point of why you’d want the thread shut down, the topic is

What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...​

We’re talking about Norton then and now, Good and bad.

I’d love for Norton to be British made and manufactured in the UK. But sadly the truth is, it won’t and can’t be.
I’m Sorry if the news of jinlang having the rights to the 961 motor upsets you. Were not the ones who sold it.

With TVS now owning Norton, you’d have to agree that they will be producing parts for the UK assembled bikes in India, and very possibly making even the higher end bikes with the Norton name on them.

I do have a dog in the fight, two of them in fact here in the USA.
I’d love to see a network of dealers here, but I highly doubt it’ll ever happen.
Not because of Garners smear and tarnished reputation, but because even when he was selling bikes here in the USA, the sales were very low and the advertising wasn’t even known. And guess what?
TVS has a very poor marketing and advertising department. Especially with how easy it is to advertise in todays internet age.
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No, it's basically a 3-member, finger pointing argument that would better be carried on in PMs, IMHO.
 
Voodooo said:
Do you disagree that Harley has parts of its bikes made in China?
Harley’s top line of CVO bikes has parts made in China just like its cheapest model.

I’m not sure what your point is.
Why would it be hard to accept the fact that the 961 is made in China?
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Because there is zero prove that the 961 is made in China, where as there is prove that it is made in a factory in Solihull, England. There are many videos showing just that, along with factory visits. A few parts of just about any vehicle in the world are no doubt made in China, doesn't mean the vehicle itself is 'made in China'
 
Bevelheadmhr said:
Because there is zero prove that the 961 is made in China, where as there is prove that it is made in a factory in Solihull, England. There are many videos showing just that, along with factory visits. A few parts of just about any vehicle in the world are no doubt made in China, doesn't mean the vehicle itself is 'made in China'
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Nobody is saying the bike is made in China.

What is being said, is that the rights to the 961 engine is owed by Jinlang of China.

Can I prove that? No.
Look, I don’t trust anything Garner said or did, I didn’t write the news or produce it.

When you did a factory tour, did you see the engines being built piece by piece?
Were they already assembled?
I haven’t seen any proof of engines being assembled at the Norton factory. If you have pics or videos of that, please share.
 
Voodooo said:
Nobody is saying the bike is made in China.

What is being said, is that the rights to the 961 engine is owed by Jinlang of China.

Can I prove that? No.
Look, I don’t trust anything Garner said or did, I didn’t write the news or produce it.

When you did a factory tour, did you see the engines being built piece by piece?
Were they already assembled?
I haven’t seen any proof of engines being assembled at the Norton factory. If you have pics or videos of that, please share.
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I certainly saw engines being built at Donnington and I didn't see any Chinese workers there, does that help.?🥸
 
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