Trouble at Mill

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[quote

A little off topic, but I'm curious of your impressions of the Panigale....my buddy just bought one and is heading up to my part of the state next month for a weekend of riding.[/quote]


Panigale...Beautiful machine....If my 60+ yr. old body could lean to reach the bars I'd own one!

Ducati Red is the most gorgeous color out there.
 
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OldBalz said:
[quote

A little off topic, but I'm curious of your impressions of the Panigale....my buddy just bought one and is heading up to my part of the state next month for a weekend of riding.

Panigale...Beautiful machine....If my 60+ yr. old body could lean to reach the bars I'd own one!

Ducati Red is the most gorgeous color out there.[/quote]

The Panigale is fantastic I can't fault it, I have only had it since August and only done 1,500 miles so far but it's superb on the road and track. I have had lots of sports bikes,Yamaha R1's, Fireblades, ZX10, Suzuki GSXR 1000's, Ducati 916, 996,999,1098,1198, MV Agusta F4 1078, F4 1000RR etc but this is the best so far! It is even quite comfortable for a sports bike and even 300 miles in a day when I first got it was not a problem. I have done one trackday so far and didn't get passed once(Intermediate group with some race bikes).It's got to be the best looking sport bike around at the moment, I can't wait for some reasonable weather to take it out again.

BTW Although the Panigale is a great looking bike it doesn't get as much attention when I park at the Cafe or Petrol Station as the Norton 961 ! Mine is in Manx colours (which I think is the best)
 

ntst8

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snakehips said:
Perhaps it's time for the 961 to have a forum of its own now ?
Surely not until the company is confirmed as financially sound, and producing good consistent volumes of bikes with impeccable quality control, hmmmmm but then on those grounds that might count out Commando's..... and Dominators ..... and flat tanks.
Yep as you were. :roll:
 
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JAYMAC finds winter riding uncongenial...so - a perfect time to take your wondrous collection down to your local Dynojet, run`em up on the dyno, & post the video...you can be 1st to show us what she`ll do...
Anyone ever seen a 961 dynorun video posted...then put it up.
 
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Nothing... where are the proud owners pleased to show us the powerful prowess of the fabulous 961 machine?
JAYMAC posts that he has done 1,500 miles on his new Ducati in ~ 2 months, or 3/4ths of the mileage total he`s put on his 961 in ~2 years...
& as for quoted power development, it is now [supposedly] made at a rev range ~ 1,200rpm [ +20 % ! - from originally quoted figures] higher than 2 years ago, strange indeed.
Yep, looks like the only way to settle it - is to put the 2 year old 961- owned by JAYMAC, on the dyno, show it pulling ~7,500 rpm in top & compare it with a new build one,
if we can find one...
I call it B.S. -`til proven other-wise..
 

L.A.B.

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J.A.W. said:
Nothing... where are the proud owners pleased to show us the powerful prowess of the fabulous 961 machine?
JAYMAC posts that he has done 1,500 miles on his new Ducati in ~ 2 months, or 3/4ths of the mileage total he`s put on his 961 in ~2 years...
& as for quoted power development, it is now [supposedly] made at a rev range ~ 1,200rpm [ +20 % ! - from originally quoted figures] higher than 2 years ago, strange indeed.
Yep, looks like the only way to settle it - is to put the 2 year old 961- owned by JAYMAC, on the dyno, show it pulling ~7,500 rpm in top & compare it with a new build one,
if we can find one...
I call it B.S. -`til proven other-wise..
The Norton 961 is capable of 125+ MPH even in "2 year old" form.
Nov. 2010
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/17/7967/M ... -Ride.aspx
Simon Skinner reports that the Commando manages a shade over 125 mph on the test track
Sept. 2010
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/mot ... eview.html
Top speed: 130mph (est)

So if JAYMAC says he saw "130 MPH" on the clock, as the speedo is likely to show a fast reading, then it wouldn't seem a particularly outrageous claim.
 
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I don't think that an indicated 130 mph is that far off, I'm sure that 125 mph true speed is not excessive especially with around 80 bhp. I have a 1975 850 roadster which was claimed to give less than 60 BHP and top speed was tested back then for the 750 was 117 mph and on standard gearing this equated to 7,200 rpm. This is taken from the old Motor Cycle paper but I have seen claims of over 120 mph in some old mags. My old 850 gets up to 100 mph OK but I have not taken it any higher out of sympathy and anyway I have modern bikes which make well over 150 BHP. The old Commando is fun to ride for different reasons and I very rarely go much over 4,500 rpm, but with the PW3 cam fitted it is quite lively up to 70 mph.
One area where the old 850 is Similar to the 961 is fuel consumption, overall I get around 50mpg on both bikes. Although if I ride around the Cotswolds roads at a leisurely pace on the 850 (50-60 mph) I can get around 60mpg.
BTW I'm sure that Norton at Donnigton have got Dyno figures for the 961, they were claiming that 80BHP was a modest figure when I collected mine in Feb 2011. When Chris Walker was working there he did some impressive displays on the bike and even won a sprint race against much more powerful bikes.
I'm sure once you have ridden one you wont be so sceptical. :)
 
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J.A.W. said:
Nothing... where are the proud owners pleased to show us the powerful prowess of the fabulous 961 machine?
JAYMAC posts that he has done 1,500 miles on his new Ducati in ~ 2 months, or 3/4ths of the mileage total he`s put on his 961 in ~2 years...
& as for quoted power development, it is now [supposedly] made at a rev range ~ 1,200rpm [ +20 % ! - from originally quoted figures] higher than 2 years ago, strange indeed.
Yep, looks like the only way to settle it - is to put the 2 year old 961- owned by JAYMAC, on the dyno, show it pulling ~7,500 rpm in top & compare it with a new build one,
if we can find one...
I call it B.S. -`til proven other-wise..
I always do more miles when I first get a bike especially if it is as good as the Ducati, I like to get the 1st service done andcheck it's OK. Although I've actually had it almost 4 months and used it up to the 1st week in Nov. I probably did the same sort of milage in the first 3 months on the 961, I know I did 600 miles in the first 2 weeks!
 
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I believe most governing bodies require that Speedometers not register low, and manufacturers design them to read as much as 5% high. Many magazines will show indicated v actual when testing a vehicle.

My Triumph Speed Triple keeps a record of the highest speed registered. Just cycle through the menu on the cluster. Good idea to reset after a run. Highest number I recorded was 143 MPH, though other S3 owners have posted high-150s on the forums. (actual top speed is maybe 155, dependent on size of rider)

The Triumph was also set by the factory to register Imperial units. Initially would read I was getting high-40s MPG. There's a combination of buttons to push to get the gauges to register SI, Imperial, or US units.
 
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The decades old Smith speedo when in proper order has been tested to be off within 1 mph at all speeds and may explain why in 2003&4 every sports rider I talked into running till theirs showed 130 to see if Peel was really going that fast never caught up with her showing 130. Peel could show 135 on the level and tucked down and a few more over that on a long downhill section. Wind buffet over 120 made clocks a blur so would put face shield down on speedo for a sec. to look then back up to stay in lane. Same with tach passing 7400 out of turns lifted eyes a bit to aim before let off so don't know rpm she ran a bit above that. Trixie factory Combat is hard pressed to show 115 on steady speedo needle in proper order and took too long for the opens here to do it much so only tried it half dozen times over 2 yrs and no intention desire to ever run over 110 on her again.
GPS on my cars and others motorcycles reveal modern speedo generally read 2-3 mph higher than GPS on level ground. GPS don't account for ground speed when climbing or decending steep slopes so not as accurate as decent Smiths can be.
 

lcrken

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JAYMAC said:
J.A.W. said:
Well, for a 1hp gain [& 7 ft/lb loss] - requiring another 1,200rpm - on a 79mm stroke mill is quite a change, new cam/ECU map, at least...
I only said that I had seen 130 mph on the speedo, I assume that it is probably reading at least 5% high that is why I said that it was an indicated reading! I'm not really bothered if it's out and I won't be going to the trouble of proving with a video etc. I have only seen this once as this is not what the 961 is about but I'm always curious to see what it will do if the conditions are right. However it will reach around 120 mph(indicated) quite easily and I have seen that many times, the acceleration is good enough to keep up with similar modern twins like the Ducati Monster but I've not seen any official figures. I have even used it on a trackday at Silverstone last year and the performance and handling was good enough to keep up with most road bikes apart from the real extreme versions.

Although I have only done 5,000 miles in the last 2 years that is mostly in the summer so there is no point in equating that to 50 miles per week. I have also got 5 other bikes which include a 1975 MK111 Commando, MV Agusta Brutale 1090RR, Ducati Panigale S, so I don't use the 961 every week even in the summer! Infact I rarely use any of my bikes from November to February when the roads are salted except when we get a dry day and the temperature is above 8c. If I was living in Australia or LA then I would be using my bikes all year round but in the UK I don't enjoy winter riding, in my younger days I had no choice!
FWIW, Alan Cathcart rode a stock production 961 at Bonneville in 2010 to set a 1000 cc production pushrod class record with a two way average of just over 129 mph. Considering that the salt flats are at an elevation of 4,218 ft asl, that would indicate it's capable of at least 135 mph on pavement at sea level. Maybe your speedo isn't that far off after all.



Ken
 

ZFD

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Crashcart's 961 would be the first "standard" production bike ever run under the disguise of a "standard production bike" in a record attempt. But what do I know...
 

lcrken

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ZFD said:
Crashcart's 961 would be the first "standard" production bike ever run under the disguise of a "standard production bike" in a record attempt. But what do I know...
All I know is that it looked like a stock 961, and Alan swore it was totally stock, as delivered to customers. I'm inclined to believe him. If they'd done a bunch of internal mods, like cam, compression, porting, etc. (which are allowed under the production class rules), I would have expected it to be faster. The speed seems quite reasonable to me for a conventional bike with 80 PS (78.9 HP) at the crank. I've run a featherbed/Commando 750 over 130 at Bonneville with less horsepower than that.

Ken
 
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Grain of salt... so to speak. All JAYMAC has to do is post his dyno run video...curious, really, that there aren`t any yet..His obfuscations will remain dubious & unconvincing otherwise.
Since they have U.S. certification, the question is, how long `til S.G. provides a test bike for C.W.?
They will publish realistic performance figures, as found by accurate test measurements, inc dyno`d rwhp/tq, dimensions, gearing,1/4 mile & top speed..
As for Crashcart`s ego-journalism/boosterism having credibility...B.S...
 

ML

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J.A.W. said:
Grain of salt... so to speak. All JAYMAC has to do is post his dyno run video...curious, really, that there aren`t any yet..His obfuscations will remain dubious & unconvincing otherwise.
How fast have you gone in your armchair? That's about all you seem do these days.
 

grandpaul

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Alan probably could have gone faster if he'd sat down and back in the seat...
 
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ML, busy tomorrow are you? I`ll show you mine ,if you show me yours...I`m up for running one of my ancient rattlers against one of yours...P.M. me.
 

lcrken

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grandpaul said:
Alan probably could have gone faster if he'd sat down and back in the seat...
That was an oddly posed shot, wasn't it? I doubt if that was his position at speed, but you never know, do you.

Ken
 

grandpaul

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Nah, I'm pretty sure Phil Hawkenz took that shot on the return road. He is the official photog for Norton USA and South Bay.
 

lcrken

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And just to make all the naysayers happy, I will point out that Alan and the Norton only held the AMA 1000 P-PP (1000cc production pushrod) record for one day. Team Klock Werks bumped the record up to 136.476 mph the next day with a Buell. That's still the current AMA record for the class. Just to make it more confusing, or to add relevance, depending on your point of view, the record for the same class in the other sanctioning organization, SCTA, is also held by a Buell at 144.626 mph.

The Buells, however, are almost surely not showroom stock, but have internal engine mods as allowed by the rules.

I'm pretty confident that a 961 with higher compression, race cams, and port work, but otherwise stock to comply with the rules, would have a fair chance of getting at least the AMA record back. Do you think I could convince the good Mr. G to ship a loaner bike over if I offered to do the engine work and take it to Bonneville? Probably not. When I asked about doing that with the rotary back in 2009 to try to get it over 200 mph, he said he couldn't even sell me one. Probably just as well.

Ken
 
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