Trail Braking Derangement Syndrome

Heard of trail braking long ago, but can't remember if I tried it. Anyway, I generally avoid touching the rear brake at highish speeds when I have a good front brake. Lighter flywheels and higher compression provide good engine braking, which does something similar to lightly using the rear brake. I think some people believe it works the other way around, but a heavy flywheel and its associated inertia combined with low compression is going to want to keep spinning when off throttle. Then again maybe I'm the only one that has experienced that engine braking difference, and my riding style could be different, but nothing special. I do front brake into turns kind of deep, but I'm generally smooth, so it's not that hard to hold a line on a light weight old Norton. I did not watch the video.

My brake light switch is on the Magura front brake lever perch.
 
I started to watch it but his corners and bends were pretty smooth, long and can handle high speeds, as well his bike handles pretty good, have ABS braking and all the gismos related to modern bikes, our old Norton's don't have all that stuff but most do upgrade the suspension and brakes system on our old bikes to handle a lot better with other upgrades, but come over where my mates and I ride up in the ranges, with tight corners, short straights, big drop offs the side and lots of bush/trees if you did lose it as well big down and up hills to travers, you need different skills to ride our range roads at speed, different conditions means different style of riding and most of our ranges getting up to 115 mph you be dead.
Braking in corners no way where I ride and using your own skills for our tight twisties is more important and having your bike set up right for those tight twisties, learn how to slow your bike down without using brakes for the next corners as well using the torque of your motor to get you through them tight twisties, but then my hot 850 Featherbed is built for the tight twisties, its light, has great front brakes but as I say I never use or touch them while riding our mountain ranges, but if I did use them it's because I have too much speed before the next tight corner, but no I been riding our great mountain ranges all my riding life and all on my Norton and Triumphs I have owned and most of my mates ride sports bikes and good skills, never see any brake lights when we are all riding these roads and we do push our bikes to their limits, we ride hard and fast and we know each other's skills.
 
Fast Eddie said:
That video clarifies a lot.

IMO that’s some good fast riding.

But the corners are not as sharp, and the braking is not as hard, as I thought we were referring to.

I thought we were talking about bikes with the forks compressed and the front tyre loaded, with the front brake on hard, whilst the rider had their knee down, kinda stuff !
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That’s not the best video to back up my claim that there is such a thing as “trail braking derangement syndrome” because, as you say, it's really just an example of good, fast riding. Its three years old but I only just came across it and it’s the best I’ve seen as far as illustrating what road based trail braking might look like. To call it trail braking is fair enough since he’s applying the brakes while the bike is leaned and he’s easing off as the lean angle increases.

The derangement comes from other YouTube channels that want you to cover the brakes and even apply a slight amount of brake pressure (essentially dragging the brakes) through all turns, all the time. I believe this originates in Nick Ienatsch’s 2014 magazine article, “The Brake Light Initiative” (a follow-up to his original “The Pace” article) in which he writes, “Your challenge for your very next sporty ride or trackday: Every time you close the throttle because your brain says slow down, pick up just enough brake lever to light up your brake light. Force yourself to do it all day, even if you know you don't need the brakes for the upcoming corner or intersection.” Nick’s a respected figure in motorcycle circles in the US and many YouTube channels are echoing his take on trail braking.
 
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grandpaul said:
Track riding and street riding really are two significantly different things, though.
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Tru dat !

When I first started racing I sudddnly found road riding quite difficult despite having been riding on the road for 12 years prior.

Not knowing how sharp the blind bend ahead is, not knowing what might be in the road, other traffic, pot holes, man holes, speed limits, etc.

It all seemed quite overwhelming and not at all fun!

I adjusted over time and learnt that it was two totally different riding styles, but the fact that was even ‘a thing’ really struck me.
 
Street is dangerous to go fast on. Track is safer without on coming traffic and a theoretically cleaner and smoother surface. IOM does not count. IOM is insanity. Hitting the deck hurts on the street or track. Getting hit by an auto, truck, or van minding your own business and riding slow also hurts.

I don't know how anyone can think they are going fast on the street and not be using the front brake. If all the turns are sweepers hell yeah use the engine braking if you have to. Otherwise the blind downhill or uphill decreasing radius turns usually require braking on entry if doing over 90mph on the straight leading up to one. Then again maybe I'm doing it all wrong. lol
 
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Trail braking remains a good thing to understand and can be practiced without being at the limit of traction. I agree that if you have to brake hard enough for a turn while road riding to really need trail braking you are likely riding waaaay to fast- but having the skill to brake deep into an overcooked corner isn’t a bad thing to have in your back pocket. If nothing else it teaches one smoothness of brake application and release, and will really force one to pay attention to chassis attitude and tire loading.

This is a skill that matured as brakes improved and my vintage race buddies all warn that trail braking is not really doable with 4ls drum brakes due to their non-linear modulation, and this likely applies to those of us still using drum brakes on our street bikes. Even early disc brakes can be problematic as the tendency was towards master cylinders with overly large pistons, enough so that feedback was wooden and modulation poor.

If nothing else, it will let you see how you a continue slowing even after you have begun your turn-in. It’s up to you to use this to expand your safety envelope or to ride like an idiot.
 
Elfix said:
Trail braking remains a good thing to understand and can be practiced without being at the limit of traction.
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"Funny but true"

How I learned "best braking" techniques, involved having my wyfe along on pillion.

She didn't like it ONE BIT if her helmet hit the back of my helmet.

Over a pretty short time, and after buying her a bike of her own to ride, I had honed my braking skills quite nicely.
 
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Sorry, I have not even looked at this forum lately. How your motorcycle reacts when you brake or accelerate depends on its weight distribution, it's steering geometry, it's tyres and its front brake. In Tony Foale's book, the effects of extreme trail are self-steering - either reduced trail or increased trail. However the rider adapts to the machine. If the motorcycle has a lot of trail, and the weight is well-forward, it can usually be accelerated harder in mid-corner. And under brakes, it will usually tip-in easier. There is a video in which it is said, if you tend to run wide in a corner, the answer is 'more lean'. I never do that. If I get into a corner too hot. I keep the bike as vertical as possible and gently use the brakes until I judge that I have lost enough speed to have tyre grip, then I accelerate. If the rear suspension is soft enough, the motorcycle will usually turn in the direction I need to go. It is counter-intuitive - nobody in their right mind would normally accelerate to stop running wider in a corner. Using a drum front brake in a corner unless you are sure of how it will behave. After a few laps of a race circuit, drum brakes will usually either fade or get stronger - depending on the linings. Disc brakes are much safer, but when you race, you usually ride to the limit of the tyres - that limit is a learned limit. You need to know when you are losing grip. In you have a lot of trail, the bike usually tips into corners easily, stays more vertical and can be accelerated hard enough through corners to safely lose traction at the rear wheel. There was a video somewhere with John Kocinsky riding the Honda RVF750 Superbike - dropping back through the race field and accelerating through corners and ending-up in the lead. It was not a VFR750 Honda. He is probably still alive - ask him about it.
 
Do not speed on public roads - I did that for 10 years before racing. Racing on a circuit looks dangerous, but it is not - it is only dangerous until you have your first crash and lose your ego. Racing car drivers should never try to road-race motorcycles. The combination of ego and reliance on reflexes is very dangerous. Go fast slowly - adrenaline causes mistakes. Using beta-blockers is cheating. (I am a stroke survivor).
 
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