Trail Braking Derangement Syndrome

ggryder

ggryder

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If you are into motorbikes and you spend any time on YouTube you’ll have watched a video or two on the subject of trail braking when riding on public roads.

The creators of these videos are often impressive communicators, but they present their case with the zeal of a tele-evangelist or an infomercial pitch-man. They have decreed that trail braking is the greatest safety enhancement since the invention of ABS and if you are not trail braking then you are a lesser rider, you’re not in control of your bike, you’re an accident waiting to happen. Exactly what road based trail braking involves seems to be a up for debate. Is anybody else unimpressed?
 
ggryder said:
If you are into motorbikes and you spend any time on YouTube you’ll have watched a video or two on the subject of trail braking when riding on public roads.

The creators of these videos are often impressive communicators, but they present their case with the zeal of a tele-evangelist or an infomercial pitch-man. They have decreed that trail braking is the greatest safety enhancement since the invention of ABS and if you are not trail braking then you are a lesser rider, you’re not in control of your bike, you’re an accident waiting to happen. Exactly what road based trail braking involves seems to be a up for debate. Is anybody else unimpressed?
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As I understand it , it is basically a twofold advantage - it loads the front tire further because of weight transfer increasing contact patch and thus increasing traction , and as your hand is already applying the brake reaction time is decreased if further breaking is needed. I fail to see any difference between public road riding and non - public road riding ( racing? ) - the physics are the same . Also potentially quicker steering because of reduced trail as the steering geometry changes. I doubt the average rider can discern this but I may be wrong.
 
Richard Tool said:
As I understand it , it is basically a twofold advantage - it loads the front tire further because of weight transfer increasing contact patch and thus increasing traction , and as your hand is already applying the brake reaction time is decreased if further breaking is needed. I fail to see any difference between public road riding and non - public road riding ( racing? ) - the physics are the same .
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Richard, for road riding, if you are still braking into the corner to the extent that you are increasing the contact patch, then, just maybe, you've over-cooked it a bit coming into the corner.
A greater safety enhancement (@ggryder ) might be to enter the corner at the speed you intend to take it at, having braked sufficiently beforehand.
I understand it's application in racing, but jeez, what's next, leathers matched to helmets for aerodynamics while you're green-laning? 🤣 🤣 :rolleyes:
 
On the road, if you’re braking into a corner hard enough to compress the forks and load the tyre, then you’re playing Russian Roulette with regards to hitting gravel / diesel / a pothole / etc.

It’s very different on a track because you know none of those things are going to be there.

Then there’s the conversation about what you’ve done to your bikes geometry entering a corner like that, and what happens when you shift from braking to accelerating and the geometry suddenly changes.

IMO dragging the front brake into a corner is a bad idea as most bikes will alter how they tip in / sit up quite dramatically based on braking or not.

Of course, this could all be a very different ball game on modern bikes with computer controlled suspension… I don’t no nuthin ‘bout that!

Most racer types that I know who talk about trail braking use the rear brake and do so to stabilise the bike.

But as GP says, ace-troll will be along shortly to educate everyone…
 
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I use the walking speed version to make tighter U-turns on my cruiser...
Trail Braking Derangement Syndrome
 
Fast Eddie said:
On the road, if you’re braking into a corner hard enough to compress the forks and load the tyre, then you’re playing Russian Roulette with regards to hitting gravel / diesel / a pothole / etc.

It’s very different on a track because you know none of those things are going to be there.
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...unless someone got into the kitty litter or popped a seal, and scattered stuff on the track a half-lap before you get there...

There was a guy in AHRMA that was despised for having regular oiling issues that ALWAYS ended up in the turns.
 
grandpaul said:
...unless someone got into the kitty litter or popped a seal, and scattered stuff on the track a half-lap before you get there...
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It’s always possible, but that’s what Marshall’s are for, their flags should warn yer unless it happens right in front of you before they can respond…
 
There’s no doubting the legitimacy of track based trail braking. I doubt people even need to be taught to do it. It surely develops naturally, as a consequence of hard, late braking. Riding on public roads, however, even if you are a “sporting” rider, rarely demands hard late braking.

Nick Ienatsch has an impressive resume as a racer, moto-journalist and all-round motorcycling guru. Years ago he wrote an article titled, “The Pace” in which he describes a style of road riding that de-emphasizes straight line speed which, as a consequence, minimizes the need for braking. He wrote in that article, “It isn't uncommon to ride with our group and not see a brake light flash all morning.”

Interestingly, as far as I can tell, Nick may be largely responsible for the current outbreak of road-based trail braking content.
 
In all my years of riding on road and race tracks I had never heard of “trail braking”.

In built up areas with lots of traffic the rear brake was used to let any vehicle behind know that I was slowing (no front brake light switch). On the open road the rear brake was almost never used on the Commando as nothing was likely to be following me so no need to operate the brake light. In any case I was light on the brakes and have never had to replace brake shoes/ pads.

On the race track, braking, as with gear changing, very quickly became fully automatic and I could not say how much I used the rear brake.
 
ggryder said:
“It isn't uncommon to ride with our group and not see a brake light flash all morning.”
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I've ridden all day in the Texas hill country without touching the brakes unless there was a STOP sign or red light. Modern DOHC Triumph triple 900cc with truckloads of torque and great engine braking, no discs needed.
 
Riding dirt bikes and road bikes for over 52 years very rarely I ever use brakes when riding only use them for full on stops, l can slow my bikes down without using the brakes before I get into the corners and with the 850 Featherbed powering up when in the corner pushes the bike though and out of the corners, its the way Featherbed frames work and using the torque of the motor, using your body to slow the bike down before the next bend, never use brake while in the corner, I have come into a few corner to quick but lucky for me the Featherbed frame and set up right gets me through, but all my bikes were set up right for hard riding in the tight twisties up in the ranges we have around here.

Even riding in traffic I give myself room to only use my brakes lightly when needed, in the dirt my Honda CRF450X is a very powerful/fast dirt bike, has great brakes but the same very rarely use them riding in the bush and using the power to get you through the corner is where the fun is.

I been riding dirt and road bikes with the same mates I grew up with on the road up in the twisties we have so much fun trying to be the first into the next corner and having your bike set up right and your own skills of riding help a great deal in getting there first without braking, but my mates are all good riders and we all know each others skills, not all the time I get there first, but some blind corner can be dangerous when gravel on the corner is involved and I have lost the front end a few times in that situation, but using the brake in that situation can also throw you off the bike, gravel and front tyres just don't go together and the same with wet roads, you just got to ride to the conditions that is thrown to you when out on 2 wheels.

Same with riding on the road you can be a safe rider but accident can also happen so quick from other road users mistake as I found out last year on my Thruxton with the wife on the back, a car pulled out of a give way sign while we were right on her, happened so quick and only seen her just as she T boned us and we were only doing 43kmph when she got us, she didn't even hit her brakes when she got us and dragged us 20 mtr down the road with the bike on top of us, so close to death for both me and the wife, it happened so quick and now we both are suffering her mistake, brakes didn't save us that day.

Ashley
 
The only time I really used trail braking was when I first rode my brand new 2018 Suzuki DR 650.

Legend says the suspension on DRs was set up for 55 Kg Japanese test riders. Not a 110 kg elderly NZer.

So the first time I rode over the Rumatuka hill and applied the front brakes for the 25 km/hr downhill corners it almost felt like my nose was scraping the ground. Soooo much dive.

A large amount of rear brake was required to come close to balancing the bike into, through and out of the curve.

All fixed now with more appropriate springs front and back. Plus upgraded dampening.

So I could see trail braking being used as a temporary fix to balance a bike which was poorly set up for a rider. As well as the racing applications which are outside my experience and skills.
 
Several mentions of using the REAR brake so there may be some diversity when it comes to what people understand trail braking to be. I think that in the on-road world (as opposed to off-road) its widely taken to mean that the front brake remains applied until you start to lean into the turn, then brake pressure is reduced progressively as the lean angle increases. Instead of the front suspension rebounding as you release the front brake the forces due to leaning/turning take over and the suspension remains compressed to more or less the same extent. It avoids one possible source of instability as you enter a turn. Quite important if you're braking hard and late - becoming insignificant in most road riding situations.
 
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