The sprocket question

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have a 22T on my 850 Interstate and love it. It has a 2S cam and otherwise stock. It is not as quick as my 750's with 19's, but much more comfortable at freeway speeds still with good grunt. Two up is still plenty strong and not uncomfortable around town.
 
Thanks for all the quick replys! Im just over 200lbs and will be carrying a fair amount of tools and gear with me ( traveling light but plenty of tools because this is my first long trip,) I think the Harley bros like to cruise at 70. From what it sounds like I will be ordering a 21t and chain to match tomorrow. Thanks again all.
 
I have a 21 tooth sprocket fitted to my 850, coming from the standard 20 tooth, I find the 21 very nice for cruising, I travel a lot two up as well. So on the hills you will be into third, and third will be good until about 50 mph without feeling like you are revving too much. Any higher gearing is not nice in traffic.
Cheers Richard
 
21T good for 50 in 3rd? More like 35+ in 1st, 60 in 2nd and 70 in 3rd, so don't be short shifting lugging much like the hogs tend to do. On 21T+ ratio Peel which had the deep hollow long-dong megaphone, I'd short shift at 2500-ish to 4th, till just out of sight around a bend then snick back to 2nd and come back on at like 5000 rpm letting her rip up into 7000's. You will seem and feel like a kids bicycle compared to the size and sound of extra heavy big twins though.
 
Nortoneer
I'm running a Maney Belt drive and a 21 tooth and I love it. Great on Gas mileage. No problem when bike is loaded all with camp gear. Cortech Saddlebag, tank, rear seat bag, tent and sleeping bag. Did a 1000-mile round trip to Vermont End of the World Norton Rally. Went through the twisty roads in the Adirondack mountains through Lake Placid area. Never regret the change to up the sprocket. I'm sure some will even know where this shot was taken. :)
The sprocket question

Cheers,
CNN
 
So far Deer tall-ish ratio belt drive + 21T combo were my favorite on past Peel. Trying to shift before tach crossed 7500, 1st indicated ~60, 2nd ~90, 3rd ~110 and 4th pulled to 6000 over 120 for sure. Commuted over the ton in the more opens with spunk still on tap. Turnpike 80's mph low 4000's. On my normal power 2 Combat I liked 20T with chain and stay below redline. For an iron butt the 24T has real appeal.
 
I know I'm on the fringe, but I really like my 23 on an all-stock 850. I'm 220 pounds and carry some luggage. Such a torquey engine I don't really find it too tall. Was running a 24, which I did feel was too tall (except for Iron Butt, as the bot points out). The 23 has decent snap, gets off the line fine and cruises sublimely at 70-80 but remains Iso smoothish down to about 60.
 
pm
I know I'm on the fringe, but I really like my 23 on an all-stock 850. I'm 220 pounds and carry some luggage. Such a torquey engine I don't really find it too tall. Was running a 24, which I did feel was too tall (except for Iron Butt, as the bot points out). The 23 has decent snap, gets off the line fine and cruises sublimely at 70-80 but remains Iso smoothish down to about 60.

Gosh that's encouraging to read as ratios I want to try on Peel torque monster that just loafs along the hwys. I'd rarely deal with city traffic and have to shift up on some Gravel climbs to tame the torque not to just spin back downhill. Thank goodness we have such a selection to try this life time.
 
Well, as Jim Comnoz stated, a Commando will cruise at 6500 rpm all day long.

Given that, why bother to change from your present 19 tooth?
 
highdesert said:
Well, as Jim Comnoz stated, a Commando will cruise at 6500 rpm all day long. Given that, why bother to change from your present 19 tooth?

Because you will use a lot less oil and fuel, and put a lot less wear on your engine is why. Efficiency goes down exponentially with rpms, and oil , wear and fuel consumption exponentially increase.

The only guys who will not tell you to try riding with a 22-24 tooth sprocket are the ones who never tried it. I had a 23 tooth on my 650 Dominator and it would loaf along at about 3000rpm at 70mph on the highway, perfect. With the stock Commando primary having a different ratio than the Dominator, it will pull a bit more revs with the 23 toother.

The early Dominators like I have took a 520 chain and the sprockets are a bit harder to find. I have a brand new 24 tooth Commando sprocket that I do not want, I would like to trade it for a 23 tooth 520 sprocket if possible, or maybe a 21-22 tooth if a 23 does not show up.

For old-man highway touring the 24 tooth will save a lot of wear and tear and liquids on a Commando. I would not do any drag racing with it, as it would put a big strain on all your shafts and bearings, and you have to feed the engine the throttle it wants instead of wacking it wide open on acceleration. But a mature riding style with a high ratio pays certain dividends that can not be had with those 19-20 tooth sprockets....
 
This is an interesting thread, I run the 16T [of the 14/15/16 factory options] output sprocket on my H2s, which gives ~20mph/thousand rpm in top, very similar to Commandos quoted, I do prefer that feeling of
A, relaxed cruise, perfectly happy to sit on 80-100mph @ 4-5,000rpm,[or higher - if conditions allow], &
B, that long-legged warp-drive feeling as the torque rises against the gearing in a relentless rush, something that low torque/hi-reving mills dont give..
I am looking forward to doing it on a Commando too.
 
Not only does the primary ratio establish the peak torque delivered to the gearbox, the taller sprocket also reduces rpm and torque at any given road speed compared to smaller sprockets. My '72 Combat with a 24-tooth sprocket and tall back tire is pulling 4000 rpm at an indicated 89 mph--2000 rpm below peak torque for that engine.

Bikes with standard gearing and camshafts are pulling around 5000 rpm at that speed, which corresponds to peak torque. It is the surplus torque and horsepower that allows these bikes to pull right on up to redline in top gear. It also contributes to the sense that the engine is "busier" than need be at tollway speeds.

It's a pure pleasure having "overdrive." If I encounter huge headwinds or hills or really want to wind it out, there's always third.



Tim Kraakevik
kraakevik@voyager.net
 
My perfect combination is a 29toothed triplex crank sprocket, matched to a 19. It gives me 75mph cruising at 4k, and still accelerates like crazy. Plus not running a larger sprocket on the gearbox shaft cuts down the amount leverage on it.
 
The Norton Owner's Club Tech Digest has some interesting observatioins concerning the various gearing ratios from gearbox sprocket changes. I quote:
" a) 19: maximum acceleration on a 750, but will over-rev in fourth gear( stock on North American 750)
b) 20: good for 750, rapid performance on a 850 (stock on North American 850)
c) 21: maximum for stock 750, suitable for a stroing 850 (stock on European 750)
d) 22: must own CB or fuzzbuster to use (stock on European 850)
e) 23: for Sunday morning riders who bury the speedo in the green ball on downhill stretches
f) 24: for Sunday morning riders who bury the speedo in the green ball down vertical inclines.""

Assuming you are running standard sprockets-Engine 26T, Clutch 57T and rear 42T with a WM 2 rim running a tyre of similar profile to that of a Dunlop 4.10, your 21 tooth gerabox sprocket should achieve the following theoretical sppeds at given RPM's

1. 3530rpm= 60mph
2. 4000 rpm =68 mph
3. 4500rpm = 76.5 mph

No doubt you may find the good old smiths speedometer will give a more optomistic reading.


Cheers

Bazz


1973 Norton Coimmando 750
1970 Bonneville
1979 BMR R 100S
1993 Harley Dyna Wide Glide
 
marinecommando said:
My perfect combination is a 29toothed triplex crank sprocket, matched to a 19. It gives me 75mph cruising at 4k, and still accelerates like crazy. Plus not running a larger sprocket on the gearbox shaft cuts down the amount leverage on it.
I am sure one of our learned forum members will correct me if I am wrong but, from my calculations, a 29 T engine sprocket with all other stock sprockets would give an overall gear ratio of 4.34, which is fairly close to the 4.38 achieved if using a 21 T gearbox sprocket .
A stock WM2-19 rear wheel ,with a stock 4.10 tyre should achieve a nominal 806 revolutions per mile ( or 806 rpm's at 60 mph). A 4.38 ratio would see the engine doing 3500 rpm's at 60mph, giving a gearing of 17.13 mph at 1000 rpm. At 4000rpm the speed should 68.5 mph.

I assume that the claimed 75mph @4000rpm is based on the speedo reading.


Bazz

1973 750 Commando
1970 Bonneville
1979 BMW R 100S
1993 Haley Dyna Wide Glide
 
When Norton came out with the 750 engine in the Atlas in 1962, they advertised that it could be ridden from 10-100 mph in top gear. I had a 63' Chevrolet that would do the same when I was younger which had an almost identical overall drive ratio of around 4.5:1. Yes I did drag race this car, but on the highway that gearing coupled with it's high volume oil pump let me watch the engine run out of oil at 70 mph because it was not draining back to the sump as fast as it was being pumped to the engine, not to mention the wear and tear the poor thing was seeing.

So suitable gearing on a Norton twin will depend a lot on whether the rider is using it for.

If the bike is a toy for thrills and "bike night" events around your local area then the stock gearing is going to be fine, just as overall gear ratios in the 4.x:1 are suitable for children driving 60s and 70s American muscle cars around "cruising" main-street.

However if you happen to own a practical automobile manufactured in the last 30 years that is equipped with a tachometer, you will notice that on the highway cruising at 70 mph the engine rpm is in the 1500-2500 range and the final drive ratios are high, such as the roughly 2.9:1 in my wife's Toyota Camry which turns a bit over 2K rpm at 70.

This is why back in the 70s and earlier if someone had a family sedan with 100,000 miles on it, it was definitely clapped out and due for an engine overhaul, but when high ratios and overdrive became popular became common to drive automobiles 200,000 miles and more before the engines were worn out.

The stroke of a Norton 650-850 is the same as a 305-350 Cubic Inch small block Chevrolet, or my wife's Toyota Camry, a good stroke for mid-range torque which will suffer longevity problems if constantly buzzed at high-rpms because of high pistons speeds, not to mention the flawed two-main bearing crank and camshaft, oil breathing problems etc..

However, tuned for mid-range and geared up to significantly lower rpm at cruising speed, most all the design shortcomings of the Norton twin are side-stepped. Now your crank and cam are not flexing, your piston speed is down along with breathing problems and oil consumption, and mechanical wear and heat is cut way down because it is an exponential function of speed.

So children driving/riding around any sort of vehicle with with a 4x:1 overall drive ratio, on the throttle and revving the engine to 6K up through the gears constantly are going to see very short engine life, they are going to be taking the engine apart in as little as 30,000 miles, 50,000 if they are lucky enough to have a better design.

The adults though, using moderate throttle and shifting at or a bit under torque peak are going to get much more use out of their engines, especially if like recent automotive practice they have an overall drive ratio that keeps the speed of their engines low for most of the time they are riding. And on main highways traveling at 70mph average, I would say that the largest gearbox sprocket offered for the twins in their day, a 23T for 650 and larger Dominators and a 24T for Commandos is the highway gear that makes sense.

This gearing is not too bad in the city either even with a four-speed box as long as there is an adult in the saddle with no drag-racing plans. The as-built torquey Norton engine will pull away from a stop in traffic like a locomotive with minimal clutch slipping and throttle.

When Norton came out with the 750 engine in the Atlas in 1962, they advertised that it could be ridden from 10-100 mph in top gear. I had a 63' Chevrolet that would do the same when I was younger which had an almost identical overall drive ratio of around 4.5:1. Yes I did drag race this car, but on the highway that gearing coupled with it's high volume oil pump let me watch the engine run out of oil at 70 mph because it was not draining back to the sump as fast as it was being pumped to the engine, not to mention the wear and tear the poor thing was seeing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top