Temperature of the Oil in the tank?

I am looking at a Brass sight-glass for the non-stock oil tank that I plan to run, what are the expected temperatures in the tank?

My thinking is to run the tank 1/2 full when cool to allow for expansion, this should allow me to run more oil than stock. Who has a problem with this?

Vince

Oil Temps are only related to how much fuel and how long you burn that fuel, not much speed itself related. Assuming normal ball park engine and fueling idle oil will be about 125' F, so don't worry about that while stuck in traffic thinking you are cooking engine, nope its the most cooled down state it can be at, even after a hot shot run up to a stop, temps will go down, just not as fast as coasting down on same low throttle. At city traffic and legal hi way speeds, should see 160-180's F. IF you can hold WOT for over 10 min > staying on cam in and out of red zone, turning sleeve bushes/shaft into ceramic grit, then might see almost up to boiling temps. EGT responds in seconds, CHT in half a minute, oil tank about a minute to respond.

Sight glass is very handy to check levels full and sat up wet sumped protective amounts to pre-oil cam w/o risk of dry running device. Will be neat to see video of the tank level refilling on wet sumped starts. Another alternative I'm looking into for Peel's water tank is a sight glass window like ship port hole cover, as the tank has a flat butt end to seal against. I'm thinking lexan instead of glass though.

I have measured mine in the 150-160 range. This is after a spirited ride in cool weather. Like 60 F. There is probably somebody out there who lives someplace with warmer weather who could measure theirs. I keep seeing claims of 300 degree oil in various threads. I kinda doubt that is at the tank.

Russ

Thanks and keep the responses coming!, I am convinced that temperature is not going to be a big-issue (as I suspected). Now I "just" need to find a pretty, large-diameter, low-profile, brass sight glass for this oil-bag.

Rather than running an Oil-cooler my plan is to increase the capacity so that the "turnover rate" is slower by running more in the tank and the "lazy" routing of the lines.

Vince

Good article on real world measurements of Norton oil and engine temps here

http://www.nortonclub.com/docs/OilTemp.pdf

Temps can get significantly higher under race conditions. I measured oil temp in tank on my roadrace Norton Commando back in the '70s several times. Temp in tank right after coming off track was as high as 280 F several times, particularly at fast tracks like Willow Springs on 100+ days in Summer. That's with high compression race engine and no oil cooler.

Ken

Ms Peel ran her hottest heats in full '03 summer when first discovering and then exploring her unexpected power response and ability to handle it in spades aganist sport rides so wild a friend warned me off joining their adrenalized Russian Roulette games which had them passing traffic in blind turns and oncoming lane over crests for 30 to 40 min periods. Most Peel could develop was 195'F about one inch off bottom of factory oil tank. Oil over boiling in rolling Commandos will only be internal oil temps in the exhaust rocker area and drain down. It took well over 100 mph for half a min in opens to get oil over 180' F in top gear. On Peel returns home at lesurely 85-95 mph oil temp reduced to low 170-80's in about one min. Normal half again faster than legal cruise w/o balls to the walls WOT pre heat averaged 165' F. Peel was cryo tempered everywhere and Tungston oxide dry friction coated about everywhere too so might not generate as much friction heat as others, but friction heat is fairly minor compared to high fuel burn heat.

You must run a Commando into abusive range for quite a while to have much oil temps issues other than cooking inside engine which no amount of external oil cooling can help. External oil cooling does help protect the the oil but is insigficant for any engine cooling. Experiments have been done on oil only cooling to find oil got as hot as eninge into 400's F head temps, so we don't see any really oil cooled craft. If you want the low down on this search up Harley factory oil cooling head experiments that ended up dropping that hot potato idea.

Peel's sigith and toolless oil drain tube and tractor cleats that the complaint tri-links gripped better than hot non DOT race tires oil heating pavement grip.

I do not want to get in an endless argument here but I do wish to just give my opinion, knowing others may disagree.

1) The Norton engine is AIR COOLED, it is also decidedly NOT primarily "oil cooled"

2) Yes, we all know that oil removes a certain amount of heat when it is recirculated back to the oil tank but again the primary cooling is from air movement over the motor.

3) Thus, IF one left their motor idling away, there would be no "air flow" as the air would be static.
By idling away, specific "hot spots" are NOT cooled as they would be by air flow, such as the exhaust ports and valves.
In addition, the pistons can expand against the bores more with no air flow and simply counting on, and believing that pumped oil flow at low idle rpm is doing enough of a job in removing heat to counter these hot spots is flawed thinking, in my humble opinion.


YES Steve, I know you have on numerous occasions stated your belief that there really is no such thing as excessive idling doing no damage in a air cooled motor.

I respectfully disagree, and this is from much reading on the subject, not just because I initially thought otherwise and therefore I am going to always believe it type critical thinking methodology.

Again Steve, I don't want to be attacked by you in a "duh" type reply.

Let's just agree to disagree, ok?

just one on many, many links dealing with coolinghttp://www.nedians.8m.com/Cooling.html

Dear up/down plainly you are speaking from ignorant belief or emotions only, while i'm objectively reporting what I measured and continue to politely but blunty state - that unless our engine is wrapped up from just convective air flow it is impossible to over heat even in spots while just at idle fuel flow heating. I tell ya i was too was very surprised and also that the mere-est lowest possible throttle to barely move down road even on slight down slope in a head wind, almost instantly, as in still easing on clutch so not to apply hardly any off idle throttle >> ups temps toward normal everywhere. I'm a dumb ass newbie to Commandos so not programmed by traditional wishful thinking. I left Peel idle against a wall in no wind full 100'+ F summer sunlight on heated cement pad 30 min to only see 850'F EGT, 125"F oil temp and 250'F head temps. While rolling off the pad 6 ft to road grade with just enough short throttle to start the easiest roll I could the EGT and CHT started rising and by time I'd let clutch out and just enough throttle not to stall, oil temps started to move up too. In hobot camp we are not concerned with excessive oil temps at all - Nay- we-me may even insulate tank just to get into moisture cook off range which is rather closer to boiling than what a mere Commando can produce on held WOT rolling. Moonshiners know about high water cook off temps to avoid so keep vapors to around 175-80 or dilutes the product. Of course if you hold high throttle sitting still will over heat, but none of us hardly ever do that very long w/o a fan.

So hobot advises to let em wet sump and let em get hot as ya can often as ya can and ya are only helping not hurting, much as that flys in face of traditions and don't sweat your engine in stifling heat to the rider trapped in leathers in traffic jams. Oh yeah and keep a look out at oil levels.

A few years ago I rode my Norton in a Christmas parade. Very slow going with lots of stop and go. Half way through the parade my bike quit running. It wasn't seized, but refused to fire up. I waited about 20 minutes and it fired up and I rode it home, about ten miles. Next day I checked the compression. Below 100 on both cylinders. Pulled the head. The valve seats were pitted from metal transfer. Anyone who thinks an air cooled engine does not require airflow lacks an understanding of basic physics.

Anyone who thinks an air cooled engine does not require airflow lacks an understanding of basic physics.

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exactly

and Hobot, knock off your cute insults like telling me I am speaking from "ignorance and emotion" just because I have an opinion that does not agree with yours

I did not insult you in my post, I did not call your position ignorant, I made a point to be overly respectful, knowing in advance how you tend to react to anyone who may disagree with you

like you starting replies with "duh" and crap like that

and now I will stoop to your level and tell you it is about time that you grew up, became more civil, and start accepting that you simply are not the go to source on everything you think you are, and finally admit just the mere possibility of being wrong and also the possible harm that someone else's motor may suffer from your "opinions" such as prolonged idling without airflow is just fine as it is oil cooling that is keeping the cooling in good shape

OK I apologize for my sly insults but recall yours and other reactions that imply I"m fooling folks when I just simply stated the temperature facts year ago. So I'm really challenging someone to try and dis- prove my blunt statement as wrong or right in what matters in Commando operation. We all have a low tolerance for BS and last thing I want to be known for so repeat "idle over heating is wives tale" that smells like a fresh cow patty in the sun to me that knows better.

What I think you or others may be recoiling from is thought of what's bad about idling long, which there are a number of reasons not too, just excess heat ain't one of them.

Consider that oxidation surface decay is at least as important to wear factor as pure mechanical friction -especially when not running, so I wish Cdo got hotter just idling instead of cooling to condense idle level blow by moisture, which is occurring most at slow idle rates and temps. Just because you can feel more heat off engine when not moving is not proof its hotter sitting still than slowly rolling. We can not avoid the oil cooking in exhaust area when rolling, only freq enough oil and quality of oil can help avoid or remove cooked oil and additives. At the low head temps of dead idle I do not think the oil gets even to 300' F so well within its lasting tolerance zone and not a cooking hazard.

Hi Steve

In Alan's article referenced by Icrken, he measured results after 10 mile runs after exited the highway and idling Very quickly the head temp rose from 275f to 325F. After idling for 10 minutes rose to 375F at the right rear head bolt and 400F at the spark plug. Alan concluded extreme sensitivity of head temp to air flow. Conditions still air flat surface and 90F ambient. This article was written to explore oil breakdown and did not go into engine wear.

So I'm really challenging someone to try and dis- prove my blunt statement as wrong or right in what matters in Commando operation

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two people on this thread already have "proved" you wrong

one by stating the engine done to his own motor by prolonged low airflow usage

and the other by showing a Commando study on the effects of temperature due to lack of air flow

but keep on believing your own "BS" Steve, keep on refuting what almost anyone other than you know to be true

because one a thought enters your head it then become the truth because you thought, and no one else better disagree with you

I won't reply any more, other people are making my point, but no doubt you will blather on to the opposite

Thanks for Alan's actual procedure and findings, I'll add that to his article I've saved.

In real use perspective the longest idled and blipped Norton I've ever seen was a Manx for like 15 min before easing off. JIm found it takes 20 min to slowly heat deep center of head to 500' F and heavy throttle run a while to see same 500' F reached rolling. My reasoning from above and fact that me and others can run many miles on high throttle routinely is we can safely get away with up to 15 min in still air @ 1000 rpm same as running the ton for an hour except cam is better off at hi rpm and oil can get to cook off temps at sustained speed but not idle.

Even though some small amount of oil at a time gets near 500' F temps, if it gets cooled down in balk of oil to below some reasonable cook off temp then it ain't cooking off what it should and water re-condenses instead of sucked or pushed out the breather.

As to moisture cook off, it boils down to the time held at some reasonable heated temps more than how hot some oil or balk of oil gets. Water in oil don't evaporate as easy as in a pan in the oven. Most oils are designed to reach about boiling temps over all. Automotive oil temps used to run to 180's but newer engines 80's on run it up too 195-210 zone. Also the additives in hi end oil are designed to activate at some temperature so if that temperature not reached then additives don't work as advertised.

I have a correction on what heats oil the most, combustion heat or mechanical friction shearing - to find references that friction heats oil more than flowing over hot engine parts.

Hello to all.
After rebuilding my last commando, I decided to go without an oil cooler. During a cold ride in the mountains a few years ago on my cooler equipped fastback, I noticed very high oil pressures. It was cold and wet and oil pressure was @90 psig at the head. My nortons always run cooler than my twin cam harley, which gets over 250 degrees farenheit on hot days.
Jim Comstock noted in an earlier thread that the hottest temps are near the exhaust valves in the head.
At altitude, >6000 ft, on a hot day, I am glad that I have an oil cooler on my fastback but that is not the norm. I guess that a thermostat controlled oil cooler is the best bet for all conditions. Synthetic oil of the right viscosity is a good idea also.

I find it a little distressing that we as a community need to "poke" at each other for any reason. We love these machines and the friendship between all of us is a big part of why I ride an commando.
MIKE

@mike3117 - If you are committed to an oil cooler on a Commando then thermostat control is a good idea. I think you will find some discussions about a thermostat controlled feed through oil coolers somewhere on this forum. It was brought up before. Do a search.

There are probably only a few rare instances where an oil cooler may be indicated on a Commando, otherwise probably more damage than good in my opinion.

I find it a little distressing that we as a community need to "poke" at each other for any reason. We love these machines and the friendship between all of us is a big part of why I ride an commando.
MIKE

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Thanks Mike and well said, We need to keep all this kind of thing in a friendly type of banter not attacking. As my brother that has been around racing for some time once said, "You ask 10 mechanics on how to tune you may get 11 answers" I myself kinda like the heated discussions, I remember a guy on another fourm that went by BDM. He had a way about him that was a bit abrasive, I thought it was entertaining. But I also saw the how people took it too seriously. Some people look to this fourm for advice and know how and we need to remember that. The Norton Commando is a reliable bike when cared for and really is not complicated, Some make it more so by trying to fix things that really don't need it. All this changes if you want to ride like an 18 year old or race, But if your riding like I do (a 52 year old) they are great bikes. Just sitting here in Death Valley wondering why i am typing this??????? Im going for a ride, Take care and ride safe my friends, Chuck. :wink:

Dances with Shrapnel said:

@mike3117 - If you are committed to an oil cooler on a Commando then thermostat control is a good idea. I think you will find some discussions about a thermostat controlled feed through oil coolers somewhere on this forum. It was brought up before. Do a search.

There are probably only a few rare instances where an oil cooler may be indicated on a Commando, otherwise probably more damage than good in my opinion.

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I agree that an oil cooler without a thermostat probably is counter productive. On the other hand, on the rare occasion when the oil cooks and turns to kerosene, an oil cooler is in need.
A cooler with thermostat, I say. I know I would have saved one head rebuild had I been running a cooler. I do now, with thermostat.

Lockhart had the first aftermarket oil cooler for motorcycles to come with a thermostat. You could get it seperate, or built in. I bought the built-in unit in 1980. It's no longer offered. Reason is, it's purely unnecessary. Think of all the vehicles in the world with oil coolers, aircraft, trucks, cars, etc.
The much repeated argument that "oil must be allowed to get over 212F to boil off the moisture" is crap too. If that were true, every vehicle with an oil/coolant heat exchanger would be sloshing water in the crankcase, the trucks coolant at 180F, or the car at 195F. It simply isn't so. So, use an oil cooler, help the vintage air cooled engine lead a longer life. Nothing negative can come of it.

I also agree that oil temperature (as measured in the tank) does not need to be at +212 F to remove the moisture since the oil will see excursions well above 212 F in the engine. The problem is adequate venting and/or condensation in the oil tank.

So moisture in the oil is a problem so why promote it with a cooler.

Using a cooler extends the engine "warm up" time which is not good. Sure you can fire off with your ride without warming up, especially in cooler temperatures but generally not good until oil reaches some nominal temperature. The faster it reaches that temperature the better.

The OP is from Houston, a region that can get rather warm. Maybe it's a judgement call on the end user as to whether the bike will be stuck in traffic on a regular basis or be used on regular WOT commutes up hill both ways but my experience is that unless you are racing, doing a lot of WOT road work or running a blower it is not needed.

Some bikes with oil coolers included bras to cover the coolers. I have a 1981 FXB with one and the recommendation is anything below 55 degrees you should cover up the cooler. I seem to recall the Lockhart I installed on my first Norton (74 Mk2a) came with a cover. That bike ran with a Drouin supercharger and 10 psig boost. Many of my race bikes do not run a cooler. Many other Norton twin race bikes run without coolers.

Dances with Shrapnel said:

@mike3117 - If you are committed to an oil cooler on a Commando then thermostat control is a good idea. I think you will find some discussions about a thermostat controlled feed through oil coolers somewhere on this forum. It was brought up before. Do a search.

There are probably only a few rare instances where an oil cooler may be indicated on a Commando, otherwise probably more damage than good in my opinion.

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So by all means if you feel you want to experiment a bit or feel you need an oil cooler based on previous experience or your expected riding conditions then have a go at it. You can certainly remove it later and/or just cover it up a bit when conditions dictate. I think you will find the opposite where you leave it covered until needed. That is the beauty of a thermostat control.