Switching primary drives.

jeffdavison · Dec 20, 2016

I was wondering if anybody here that has/had been using a belt primary decided to go back to the chain driven primary and what was your reasoning and experience?
Just curiosity.....

Jeff Davison

concours · Dec 20, 2016

Could be as much fun as an oil thread

I'm a fan of the fully enclosed, oil bathed chain, sprockets, alternator & clutch. I run ATF waaaay over the level plug, lower chain run submerged. Love it. :mrgreen:

andychain · Dec 21, 2016

Keep it as it was designed.

I know I am biased but it has to be chain for a long life drive.

Only problem is that 99% of triplex are shit, Regina isnt bad.

There are plenty of Commandos running the big pin Merc duplex with no problems
and they should last the life of the bike........just not a lot of feedback yet.

Andy

APRRSV · Dec 21, 2016

Andychain,
Does the Merc duplex require duplex sprocket and clutch basket? Where can I find duplex chain?

Ed

baz · Dec 21, 2016

Nothing wrong with the standard chain set up,I use a belt drive for one reason it's very light weight compared to the chain/oil set up hope this helps

kommando · Dec 21, 2016

Does the Merc duplex require duplex sprocket and clutch basket? Where can I find duplex chain?

You keep the triplex sprocket and clutch basket, the duplex chain goes over the 2 inner sets of teeth and the 3rd set of teeth do nothing and do not interfere. Use the 2 inner sets of teeth to keep the bending forces as close to the supporting bearings as possible.

I use Andy's merc chain on my T120R and have checked it over a T140 triplex sprocket and it works fine.

andychain · Dec 21, 2016

Questions answered.

Chain runs on 2 teeth forms.

You can buy the Merc chains from any Merc dealer but only in long lengths at very high price.

I do them for Commandos at £60 plus postage.

Andy

swooshdave · Dec 21, 2016

andychain said:
Keep it as it was designed.

I know I am biased but it has to be chain for a long life drive.

Only problem is that 99% of triplex are shit, Regina isnt bad.

There are plenty of Commandos running the big pin Merc duplex with no problems
and they should last the life of the bike........just not a lot of feedback yet.

Andy

I didn't see that coming. :roll:

The biggest reason to get rid of the chain is the weight, of both the chain and clutch basket. Especially the clutch basket. Sorry, but there's nothing Andy can do about that.

Fast Eddie · Dec 21, 2016

swooshdave said:
andychain said:

Keep it as it was designed.

I know I am biased but it has to be chain for a long life drive.

Only problem is that 99% of triplex are shit, Regina isnt bad.

There are plenty of Commandos running the big pin Merc duplex with no problems
and they should last the life of the bike........just not a lot of feedback yet.

Andy

Click to expand...

I didn't see that coming. :roll:

The biggest reason to get rid of the chain is the weight, of both the chain and clutch basket. Especially the clutch basket. Sorry, but there's nothing Andy can do about that.

My thoughts also.

And the corresponding stress on the mainshaft.

But if I did run a chain, I'd definitely use Andy's.

gripper · Dec 21, 2016

Andy, Do you make up the Merc chains to suit the Commando primary drive or do they come from Mercedes with the right number of links?

kommando · Dec 21, 2016

Andy buys the chains in bulk, long chains on a reel, when you place an order he cuts the right length and then joins it with a riveted link on a fixture giving an endless chain of the right length. When you buy one from him at an Autojumble you get to see him do all the work in front of you.

jimbo · Dec 21, 2016

IMHO the MK111 chain will wear/lengthen a little causing the adjuster not to work well. I after years of trying to get the chain slap noise reduced, I replaced the chain with an new Andover N piece and the noise and slap was gone.

MFB · Dec 21, 2016

Apart from the weight issue, the belt drive can further reduce stress on the mainshaft if you choose a ratio that speeds up the gearbox and you go to a smaller final drive sprocket to maintain your overall gearing. As far as I know, the chain drive doesn't have a range of ratios to choose from.
Changing the ratio this way also has a side benefit of lessening kickstarting effort.

I also like the fact that, with no oil on the clutch, the spring pressure can be reduced by adjusting the stack height, making the clutch easier to use.
And of course no possibility of oil leaks.
Oh yes, use a Dyno Dave clutch rod seal just to be sure to be sure.

A far as long life goes, it won't have to last too long to outlast me.
I haven't put a lot of miles on my belt drive and I probably won't.

The Buckeye Rider · Dec 23, 2016

jimbo said:
IMHO the MK111 chain will wear/lengthen a little causing the adjuster not to work well. I after years of trying to get the chain slap noise reduced, I replaced the chain with an new Andover N piece and the noise and slap was gone.

Please enlighten those of us in the dark as to what an 'Andover N' is exactly.
Ride On
Dave

jimbo · Dec 23, 2016

The Buckeye Rider said:
jimbo said:

IMHO the MK111 chain will wear/lengthen a little causing the adjuster not to work well. I after years of trying to get the chain slap noise reduced, I replaced the chain with an new Andover N piece and the noise and slap was gone.

Click to expand...

Please enlighten those of us in the dark as to what an 'Andover N' is exactly.
Ride On
Dave

authentic Norton parts

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop/

worntorn · Dec 23, 2016

MFB said:
I also like the fact that, with no oil on the clutch, the spring pressure can be reduced by adjusting the stack height, making the clutch easier to use.
And of course no possibility of oil leaks.
Oh yes, use a Dyno Dave clutch rod seal just to be sure to be sure.

.

I was hoping for an easy clutch with the beltdrive but did not get it.
I have a 650ss with Venhills featherlight clutch cable, Newby Racing Belt drive and dry clutch, Dyno Dave seal. The Newby setup is an expensive one and is considered by many to be the best of all the belt drives. It certainly is well made.

The motor has been breathed on by Herb Becker and it does fly. In order to eliminate slippage the clutch springs had to be tightened down to a point that the clutch requires about 15 lbs pull on the lever, not horrible but substantial.

By comparison the stock 850 Commando with same type cable and everything set up properly, oil type Kevlar plates, Dave's seal, requires just 7 pounds pull and does not slip.
Even though the 650 is a quick little bike, I suspect the 850 puts a bit more strain on the clutch at times.
Roll on in top gear is where slippage generally shows up on any setup I've had.
For that the 850 definitely is putting more torque thru the clutch.

The Newby clutch works fine but the 850 oil setup is a little nicer to feather in tight situations.

Glen

1up3down · Dec 23, 2016

I gotta ask because I don't get it...

someone explain why the clutch plates are easier to separate, why the lever pull would be different, depending upon if one happens to be running a dry belt of oiled primary chain?

having had a chain for 30 year and now the last 15 with a dry belt I honestly can say I can tell no difference at all

swooshdave · Dec 23, 2016

worntorn said:
MFB said:

I also like the fact that, with no oil on the clutch, the spring pressure can be reduced by adjusting the stack height, making the clutch easier to use.
And of course no possibility of oil leaks.
Oh yes, use a Dyno Dave clutch rod seal just to be sure to be sure.

.

Click to expand...

I was hoping for an easy clutch with the beltdrive but did not get it.
I have a 650ss with Venhills featherlight clutch cable, Newby Racing Belt drive and dry clutch, Dyno Dave seal. The Newby setup is an expensive one and is considered by many to be the best of all the belt drives. It certainly is well made.

The motor has been breathed on by Herb Becker and it does fly. In order to eliminate slippage the clutch springs had to be tightened down to a point that the clutch requires about 15 lbs pull on the lever, not horrible but substantial.

By comparison the stock 850 Commando with same type cable and everything set up properly, oil type Kevlar plates, Dave's seal, requires just 7 pounds pull and does not slip.
Even though the 650 is a quick little bike, I suspect the 850 puts a bit more strain on the clutch at times.
Roll on in top gear is where slippage generally shows up on any setup I've had.
For that the 850 definitely is putting more torque thru the clutch.

The Newby clutch works fine but the 850 oil setup is a little nicer to feather in tight situations.

Glen

So I don't get this. You're wondering why the diaphragm spring clutch is lighter than your 650SS?

And you think that the 850 has more torque?

Who hacked you're account?

worntorn · Dec 23, 2016

I expected that the dry clutch would have sufficient grip even with low spring pressure to handle a little 650cc engine easily. That did not turn out to be the case. I set it up light, had lots of slippage and kept adding tension until the slippage ceased. At that point the clutch pull was no longer "light".

The 850 diagphram clutch on the other hand, even with oil on it can stand up to an 850 CC engine of the same basic design and will work fine with diagphram set for an extremely light clutch pull. This surprised me as well. When I first set it up this way I expected that it would slip like crazy, so easy was the pull, but I was pleasantly surprised.

Yes, the 850 puts out more torque than the 650.

What don't you get?

Glen

swooshdave · Dec 23, 2016

worntorn said:
I expected that the dry clutch would have sufficient grip even with low spring pressure to handle a little 650cc engine easily. That did not turn out to be the case. I set it up light, had lots of slippage and kept adding tension until the slippage ceased. At that point the clutch pull was no longer "light".

The 850 diagphram clutch on the other hand, even with oil on it can stand up to an 850 CC engine of the same basic design and will work fine with diagphram set for an extremely light clutch pull. This surprised me as well. When I first set it up this way I expected that it would slip like crazy, so easy was the pull, but I was pleasantly surprised.

Yes, the 850 puts out more torque than the 650.

What don't you get?

Glen

That you didn't understand how the non-diaphragm clutches work. :|

Switching primary drives.

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