RGM pre-Commando belt clutch experiment for P11

It's done. The cut turned out to have a very flat not rocking surface.

I may cave in and end up putting some small button head screws on the keeper plate. The shoulder width grew a little after cutting the pulley down. Probably not necessary, but it might look cool. ha

Tolerances? It's an old Norton, not an F1 car. lol

worntorn said:

I don't understand why RGM doesn't send you the correct part at their cost.


Glen

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I maybe a bit negative, but that kind of thing doesn't happen anymore in my experience with any of the vendors I've dealt with in the last 4 years.

RGM has never responded to any of the 4 emails I've sent regarding this clutch kit. Doesn't matter enough to me to call and explain anything.

Maybe try Walridge next time.
Not too long ago he sent me some rubber gaiters for the BSA Super Rocket.
They looked nice for awhile then started to perish and crack after a couple of years.
I have found this same problem with other replacement rubber items purchased from other suppliers, for example Ossa rubber headlight mounts.

The original lasted 30 years then fell apart. The replacement lasted a fraction of that.

I called Mike at Walridge to tell him about the problem and to see if he had a line on some better gaiters for the Super Rocket. He said that he had a new supplier for this and he felt that the quality would be much better than the ones I had previously purchased from him.
I asked the cost and his response was " Nothing, I'll send them to you if you would like to try them"
I planned to pay for better ones but was mightily impressed by his response to my problem. Not many suppliers operate this way.

Glen

worntorn said:

Maybe try Walridge next time.
Not too long ago he sent me some rubber gaiters for the BSA Super Rocket.
They looked nice for awhile then started to perish and crack after a couple of years.
I have found this same problem with other replacement rubber items purchased from other suppliers, for example Ossa rubber headlight mounts.

The original lasted 30 years then fell apart. The replacement lasted a fraction of that.

I called Mike at Walridge to tell him about the problem and to see if he had a line on some better gaiters for the Super Rocket. He said that he had a new supplier for this and he felt that the quality would be much better than the ones I had previously purchased from him.
I asked the cost and his response was " Nothing, I'll send them to you if you would like to try them"
I planned to pay for better ones but was mightily impressed by his response to my problem. Not many suppliers operate this way.

Glen

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That is a golden experience. Mike is a good guy.

I don't know where my phone is half the time. I should call Roger to see how he reacts, but I think I'll just leave him be until I really need something.

It took me way too long to figure out the 30mm pulley I got with the kit contents was never going to work well with a 20mm belt.

I did not need to do the work to install screws going through the outer keeper plate into the pulley with the stock rotor spacer. Once the rotor and pulley were torqued to 75ftlb the keeper plate was immovable in any direction.

Given my experiment I think the base set of requirements for installing this on a P11/N15 are:

a 20mm engine pulley
(it is sold with a 27mm pulley?, which I think is too wide. RGM sent me a 30mm pulley. I know for sure 30mm is too wide.),

a 1/4" full perimeter primary case spacer,

longer dowels in the inner primary case,

shave a little material off the bottom of the lower inspection/fill cover thread boss inside the outer primary case,

a 20AT10 880 Continental Synchroflex Gen3 belt. Note: With a 1/4" spacer you "might" be able to get away with a 25mm belt if you can get a 25mm engine pulley. Big on the "might", because I used a 1/8th" spacer with two gaskets to get useable spacing for a 20mm belt and 20mm engine pulley. I have no experience with a 1/4" spacer.

a clutch rod seal for an AMC gearbox with the stock P11/N15 mainshaft

Reading the instructions a few times

Adjusting the belt tension turns out to be tricky. The belt turns 80 degrees fairly easily, but maybe it's not easily enough. Gearbox doesn't want to go into 2nd now.

I'm going to loosen it up some, but would a TTi gearbox be immune to this kind of poor shift behavior with a slightly tight belt? I know I'm asking for it asking that question. Bring it.

I really don't care for having the belt so loose it skips an engine pulley tooth when kick starting. That feels like poop when kicking the motor over.

Schwany said:

It took me way too long to figure out the 30mm pulley I got with the kit contents was never going to work well with a 20mm belt.

I did not need to do the work to install screws going through the outer keeper plate into the pulley with the stock rotor spacer. Once the rotor and pulley were torqued to 75ftlb the keeper plate was immovable in any direction.

Given my experiment I think the base set of requirements for installing this on a P11/N15 are:

a 20mm engine pulley
(it is sold with a 27mm pulley?, which I think is too wide. RGM sent me a 30mm pulley. I know for sure 30mm is too wide.),

a 1/4" full perimeter primary case spacer,

longer dowels in the inner primary case,

shave a little material off the bottom of the lower inspection/fill cover thread boss inside the outer primary case,

a 20AT10 880 Continental Synchroflex Gen3 belt. Note: With a 1/4" spacer you "might" be able to get away with a 25mm belt if you can get a 25mm engine pulley. Big on the "might", because I used a 1/8th" spacer with two gaskets to get useable spacing for a 20mm belt and 20mm engine pulley. I have no experience with a 1/4" spacer.

a clutch rod seal for an AMC gearbox with the stock P11/N15 mainshaft

Reading the instructions a few times

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Could you attach pictures please?

arabellemcelreavy2 said:

Could you attach pictures please?

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Pictures of what exactly? I stopped taking pics of the clutch just before reinstalling the outer primary.

I can't take a pic of each of the bullet items I mentioned without taking the clutch apart and removing it. I won't be doing that anytime soon, I hope. Assembled it looks like a RGM belt clutch. (Should be at least one pic in the thread already.) Currently mine does not have the 880 length Red Continental Gen3 belt I mentioned above on it. It has the older Grey 880 length belt because Bolton sent the wrong 880 length belt.

I did take one last pic of the engine pulley installed after I cut the width down from 30mm to 21mm. Closet experts may note that the rotor has a cut line on it. That cut is from a piece of metal that was clinging to the magnet I didn't notice during assembly. That piece of metal ended up stuck to one of the pads on the stator. I had to remove it with a dental tool. However, it does look like the rotor is scraping on the stator. It is not. The black line on the outer edge of the rotor is from a sharpie marker. For those that don't know, the stator is in the outer cover on the P11 N15 or other models that use the Matchless style primary cover.

Schwany said:

Pictures of what exactly? I stopped taking pics of the clutch just before reinstalling the outer primary.

I can't take a pic of each of the bullet items I mentioned without taking the clutch apart and removing it. I won't be doing that anytime soon, I hope. Assembled it looks like a RGM belt clutch. (Should be at least one pic in the thread already.) Currently mine does not have the 880 length Red Continental Gen3 belt I mentioned above on it. It has the older Grey 880 length belt because Bolton sent the wrong 880 length belt.

I did take one last pic of the engine pulley installed after I cut the width down from 30mm to 21mm. Closet experts may note that the rotor has a cut line on it. That cut is from a piece of metal that was clinging to the magnet I didn't notice during assembly. That piece of metal ended up stuck to one of the pads on the stator. I had to remove it with a dental tool. However, it does look like the rotor is scraping on the stator. It is not. The black line on the outer edge of the rotor is from a sharpie marker. For those that don't know, the stator is in the outer cover on the P11 N15 or other models that use the Matchless style primary cover.

http://essaypapers.reviews/

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This is what I needed, nice!

I have the AT10 polyurethane belt adjusted so that it does not skip a tooth on the engine pulley during cold kick starts. There is still some belt play when the clutch is heated up, so I'll see how that goes. If I destroy my AMC gearbox because the belt is too tight, I'll figure out how to fit a TTi gearbox in the fall. I replaced a few parts in my AMC gearbox and it shifts a little better. I guess I'll have to get out there and get in some test rides before the 3 months of drizzle sets in.

For the few people that don't have me on their ignore list yet...

This post is a note in reference to TTi gearboxes. I plan to order a TTi gearbox from TGA. What they have in stock is all spoken for. TGA says the current lead time for new TTi gearboxes is 20 weeks. Also said in the 20+ years they have been dealing with TTi they have never delivered on time. So looks like best case might be mid-winter 2024 before TGA has any. An order and deposit is required now if anyone wants a new TTi gearbox from TGA in early 2024.

Nice. Which gear ratios are you getting?

elefantrider said:

Nice. Which gear ratios are you getting?

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Standard TTi 5 speed. For the most part the TTi 5 speed comes in two flavors Standard and Heavy Duty. The gear ratios are listed at the bottom of the description here. I'm also considering changing the engine pulley to 28 teeth from 27. I am using a 21 tooth gearbox sprocket instead of the 19 tooth that is standard on a P11.

Only thing I'm still thinking about is if I want to go to 520 chain. The TTi 530 gearbox sprocket is special order. Although with a 20 week lead time, the whole enchilada is special order.

The 5 speed makes sense to me.

I believe TTI offers a wider ratio with a lower first gear which is why I asked.

elefantrider said:

I believe TTI offers a wider ratio with a lower first gear which is why I asked.

Click to expand...

That is the Standard 5 speed version.

Schwany said:

For the few people that don't have me on their ignore list yet...

This post is a note in reference to TTi gearboxes. I plan to order a TTi gearbox from TGA. What they have in stock is all spoken for. TGA says the current lead time for new TTi gearboxes is 20 weeks. Also said in the 20+ years they have been dealing with TTi they have never delivered on time. So looks like best case might be mid-winter 2024 before TGA has any. An order and deposit is required now if anyone wants a new TTi gearbox from TGA in early 2024.

Click to expand...

Does that mean the belt was too tight?

Schwany said:

For the few people that don't have me on their ignore list yet...

This post is a note in reference to TTi gearboxes. I plan to order a TTi gearbox from TGA. What they have in stock is all spoken for. TGA says the current lead time for new TTi gearboxes is 20 weeks. Also said in the 20+ years they have been dealing with TTi they have never delivered on time. So looks like best case might be mid-winter 2024 before TGA has any. An order and deposit is required now if anyone wants a new TTi gearbox from TGA in early 2024.

Click to expand...

Why do you plan to order through TGA? I can't imagine Andy offering a discount. When I ordered my gb last year, I ordered with TTI.

For your information, I have enquired what it takes for TTI to supply a HD gearbox in the familiar Matchless shell configuration, alternatively deliver all minus the main shell, which I would produce as a billet job. This will of course put delivery further back.
I will keep you informed of their reply.

I suggest you borrow a genuine AMC/Norton shell, allowing trial fitment prior to ordering with TTi. It might save you a big loss.

- Knut


Edit: TTI refuses the supply of a semi-complete gearbox in order to build a custom gearbox.

mdt-son said:

Why do you plan to order through TGA? I can't imagine Andy offering a discount. When I ordered my gb last year, I ordered with TTI.

For your information, I have enquired what it takes for TTI to supply a HD gearbox in the familiar Matchless shell configuration, alternatively deliver all minus the main shell, which I would produce as a billet job. This will of course put delivery further back.
I will keep you informed of their reply.

I suggest you borrow a genuine AMC/Norton shell, allowing trial fitment prior to ordering with TTi. It might save you a big loss.

- Knut

Click to expand...

No discount with TGA, but TTi direct wants a ridiculous amount of money to ship the box to Seattle. It turns out to be a wash using TGA. TTi doesn't discount anything as far as I know. Besides I get along well with Andy Molnar via email. He is quick to respond, and gets my sense of humor. That actually counts for me.

I'm well aware it might be an engineering PITA for a parts changing barn yard shade tree mechanic like myself to mount. I could very well have bitten off more than I can chew. Nice thing about being delusional about my own skill level is I won't know until I try. If I can't do it, it goes on the stack of parts included when I sell the P11. Or,.... I can always buy a Commando or featherbed frame and start over, just so I can use a better gearbox.

Schwany said:

No discount with TGA, but TTi direct wants a ridiculous amount of money to ship the box to Seattle. It turns out to be a wash using TGA. TTi doesn't discount anything as far as I know. Besides I get along well with Andy Molnar via email. He is quick to respond, and gets my sense of humor. That actually counts for me.

I'm well aware it might be an engineering PITA for a parts changing barn yard shade tree mechanic like myself to mount. I could very well have bitten off more than I can chew. Nice thing about being delusional about my own skill level is I won't know until I try. If I can't do it, it goes on the stack of parts included when I sell the P11. Or,.... I can always buy a Commando or featherbed frame and start over, just so I can use a better gearbox.

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Schwany, contact Martin at Minnovation Racing, I’m not 100% sure of current status but last I spoke with him he had TTI boxes in stock…

Fast Eddie said:

Schwany, contact Martin at Minnovation Racing, I’m not 100% sure of current status but last I spoke with him he had TTI boxes in stock…

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Thanks I was on the Minnovation Racing site 2 days ago when I decided I was going to change gearboxes, but didn't see anything gearbox specific. Just now checked again and nothing. I feel guilty asking for anything here. Probably should have though.

I already ordered it from TGA and paid the deposit.

cliffa said:

Does that mean the belt was too tight?

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Maybe, but more belt slack starts skipping a tooth on kick starts. I could try going back to that mode again, but got a bee in my bonnet to try the TTi 5 speed. Might still back the belt off a flat or two.

The symptom is pawl can't reliably find the rachet when the motor is running. Works perfectly on the bench. Spring has been adjusted 6 times and same thing. I'm at the insanity stage where doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is not working. Outer cover is off right now, and I'm about to pull the inner cover after I finish a cup of coffee.

I suspect now that I have ordered the TTi gearbox, I'll get it to work perfectly. In my dreams.

I do like the 4 speed AMC box when it works, but it has been a little problematic since 1972.