pump flow

Anyone know how much a standard commando oil pump will deliver, pints or litres per minute's please, also is there an upgraded pump available :?:

To quote John Hudson speaking about the Commando lubrication system in his NOC 'Norton Twin Engine Strip' video: [JH]".... if you put it into figures, at 6,000 RPM, the pump delivers some 26 gallons an hour...."

No doubt John was referring to Imperial gallons.

Thanks Lab. You are a mine of info 8)

I am in the process of rebuilding an 850 that has been in storage for a long time. Is there a way to test the oil pump or be reasonably sure it is functioning without running the bike? It does not seem as though there can be anything broken in there other than obvious things like broken or sticking gears.

drones76 said:

I am in the process of rebuilding an 850 that has been in storage for a long time. Is there a way to test the oil pump or be reasonably sure it is functioning without running the bike? It does not seem as though there can be anything broken in there other than obvious things like broken or sticking gears.

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Strip it down and exam the internals, it's easy and good insurance .a wreaked engine is $$$$$'s

L.A.B. said:

To quote John Hudson speaking about the Commando lubrication system in his NOC 'Norton Twin Engine Strip' video: [JH]".... if you put it into figures, at 6,000 RPM, the pump delivers some 26 gallons an hour...."

No doubt John was referring to Imperial gallons.

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1 litre a minute at 3000 ...How can i get more :?:

john robert bould said:

1 litre a minute at 3000 ...How can i get more

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Why would you want more?

I sure know why I want more for my Ms Peel but it ain't for engine lube which already has plenty. What was left out of Mr. John Hudson's report was the engine only consumed 13 gallon and hour out of this 26 g/h supply, 10 to the bottom 3 to the top so it dumps 10 extra gallons into the TS chest to be pumped out. Then he detailed a mod to recirculate this extra 10 gallons via the bypass plumbing to spare the pump work to suck out the extra 10 gallon from the sump. Oil flow has to be restricted to head as it is and the crank sling handles the rod shells if pump inlet not restricted to supply it even if not at high pressure.

I am toying with the Cummins or Suzuki "Oil cooled " system, I would like piston under cooling from a jet spray. Suzuki use this to keep the engine temp under control on there old GSX 750 R ,and the well respected Cummins diesel use's the same idea...I have a 750 fast back engine that meeds rebuilding and "just for the hell of it" i want to "Play" with things...Over active grey matter i think, I have allso a hydralic tappet system in mind. Hate that rattle! .so i require more flow. Mayby another extra electric pump?

L.A.B. said:

To quote John Hudson speaking about the Commando lubrication system in his NOC 'Norton Twin Engine Strip' video: [JH]".... if you put it into figures, at 6,000 RPM, the pump delivers some 26 gallons an hour...."

No doubt John was referring to Imperial gallons.

Click to expand...

I have built an oil pump test rig out of a set of combat cases and desire to test a factory new MKIII pump with a 6 start gear.
I have not seen the video and am curious to know if he is in fact refering to "commando" therefore 6 start.
I have about two dozen NHT pumps. The differences in performance noted from the samples I own and have borrowed, so far is dramatic in the range of performance when under pressure for both feed and scavenge sides.

hobot said:

What was left out of Mr. John Hudson's report was the engine only consumed 13 gallon and hour out of this 26 g/h supply, 10 to the bottom 3 to the top so it dumps 10 extra gallons into the TS chest to be pumped out.

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The circulation figures refer to a Commando engine. "Dominator" engines (650SS/Atlas) blew their OPRV oil into the timing chest, Commandos did not except for the 850 Mk3.

John actually says "about 13 gallons go to the big ends and about 2 or 3 gallons go to the valve gear..."

dynodave said:

L.A.B. said:

To quote John Hudson speaking about the Commando lubrication system in his NOC 'Norton Twin Engine Strip' video: [JH]".... if you put it into figures, at 6,000 RPM, the pump delivers some 26 gallons an hour...."

No doubt John was referring to Imperial gallons.

Click to expand...

I have built an oil pump test rig out of a set of combat cases and desire to test a factory new MKIII pump with a 6 start gear.
I have not seen the video and am curious to know if he is in fact refering to "commando" therefore 6 start.
I have about two dozen NHT pumps. The differences in performance noted from the samples I own and have borrowed, so far is dramatic in the range of performance when under pressure for both feed and scavenge sides.

Click to expand...

Dyno dave, who makes the NHT pumps and whats the spec on them. are they just the same gearwise ,but driven faster :?:

dynodave said:

I have built an oil pump test rig out of a set of combat cases and desire to test a factory new MKIII pump with a 6 start gear.
I have not seen the video and am curious to know if he is in fact refering to "commando" therefore 6 start.

Click to expand...

Yes, in that part of the video John describes the differences between "Dominator" and the later 116372 6-start pump lubrication systems as fitted to the Commando.

Aside from lubrication duty my rough estimate would be that each pound of circulated oil moves 1200 BTU or so per hour from hotter to cooler places in the course of burning 125,000 BTU (say one Imperial gallon per hour at 60 mph--roughly 3000 rpm and presumably half the quoted flow rate). It's amazing that these vintage air/oil-cooled engines work as well as they do in all kinds of climates, from idle--to droning across the prairies--to racing flat out


Tim Kraakevik
kraakevik@voyager.net

hobot said:

Then he detailed a mod to recirculate this extra 10 gallons via the bypass plumbing to spare the pump work to suck out the extra 10 gallon from the sump.

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If the OPRV was fully open then perhaps. But when the oil gets hot and thins out, the amount of oil recirculating back to the pump from the OPRV would probably be considerably less-so it seems unlikely there would be as much as 10 gallons sent back to the pump when the OPRV was shut-or partially closed?

Dyno dave, who makes the NHT pumps and whats the spec on them. are they just the same gearwise ,but driven faster :?:[/quote]

NHT means NORTON Heavy Twin, as in the whole series from 1949 thru 1975. When my research is done I will publish an article on my website with the flow/pressure/RPM curves for 3 & 6 start gears and early narrow gears and late wide
gears. AFAIK Norton Andover comissions new OEM pump production and are the only show in town.

About to look up the Neaderthal , er , woops . Neatherlands site . FOR the Last ? works F750 .

with the Flat Timing Cover , AND the ' TROCHOIDAL ' oil pump . As it is alledgedly reported that
in the I.o.M. at full tilt ( r.p.m.'s) which they hold for a time , at the veranda , and elsewhere ,
the Oil Pressue Guage reads ' O ' . oops . Fudge . DUE TO the centrifugal action of the Throw /
rod jourals about the axis , which at 7.000 ' Hot ' matches the rate of supply of the std. Oil Pump .

NEVERTHELESS , the centrifugal action provides the nessesary 80 P.S.I. at the Jouranals .

However , to this tiny little mind , it brings about the thought ' WOT about the Top End ' considering
that advice of the N.O.C. that particular consideration should be applied to the Top End Supply fittings,
AS the Engine is Not Only ' Air Cooled ' , but to a large degree , the ' Top End ' is OIL COOLED . Disruption
of the supply leading to dire consequences .,

( Oil Cooled top ends were apparently ' invented ' by Suzuki , on the GSX R ! :shock: :wink: .

Therfore , etc .

ALSO presumably , the British Motorcyle Musem purloined the patterns for the unique Primary Cases ,
and this Flat External pump ( How CONVENIENT ) Timing Cover . Yes , Id Like Some , please ! :| 8)

External oil pump :?: Now theres a thought, Mayby a big Morgo on the side. I believe these deliver twice that of the NHT,
Reason i am interested in oil cooling is : this summer i was invited to visit a bike gathering, the lads i went with had big modern bikes.
Not wanting to appear a slug i give the old 850 some big.big sustained hand full's, well i wasn't going to let some 2.3 Rocket three beat the old girl'
Needless to say when we arrived the Commando was hot! It was a hot day and 5 minutes to get on the park really boiled the old girl, i could hear the tappets klonking and feel the rising heat :!:
So walking round with a cool beer got me thinking about some "extra "help with cooling the engine, i deceided that a bigger flow with under piston spray was the way forward. But i doubt the stock pump is up to the task, 3-4 litres a minute sounds good with a oil cooler giving extra volume ..say another litre,
The general recommendation of 1/2 tank to start with [because of froth] is going againts all modern ideas , Mercades have big oil sumps and cooler. My sprinter holds approx 8 litres..

Now theres a thought....oil pump off a sprinter....going the ebay right now :!:

Matt Spencer said:

About to look up the Neaderthal , er , woops . Neatherlands site . FOR the Last ? works F750 .

with the Flat Timing Cover , AND the ' TROCHOIDAL ' oil pump . As it is alledgedly reported that
in the I.o.M. at full tilt ( r.p.m.'s) which they hold for a time , at the veranda , and elsewhere ,
the Oil Pressue Guage reads ' O ' . oops . Fudge . DUE TO the centrifugal action of the Throw /
rod jourals about the axis , which at 7.000 ' Hot ' matches the rate of supply of the std. Oil Pump .

NEVERTHELESS , the centrifugal action provides the nessesary 80 P.S.I. at the Jouranals .

However , to this tiny little mind , it brings about the thought ' WOT about the Top End ' considering
that advice of the N.O.C. that particular consideration should be applied to the Top End Supply fittings,
AS the Engine is Not Only ' Air Cooled ' , but to a large degree , the ' Top End ' is OIL COOLED . Disruption
of the supply leading to dire consequences .,

( Oil Cooled top ends were apparently ' invented ' by Suzuki , on the GSX R ! :shock: :wink: .

Therfore , etc .

ALSO presumably , the British Motorcyle Musem purloined the patterns for the unique Primary Cases ,
and this Flat External pump ( How CONVENIENT ) Timing Cover . Yes , Id Like Some , please ! :| 8)

Click to expand...

Why carnt the commando have massive top end flow,surely with valve seal's that carnt be a problem :!: :?:

BOTHER , just lost 40 mins tripe writeing , on this ,. THE PROBLEM was , the oil didnt get there . O pressure . HENCE the TROCHOIDAL pump on teh Space Frame Commando . This One , at least .

Further ' Heat Soak " sums it up , re ' rattly ' posible used additives ordinarilly new oil called for . idling , low pressure stinking hot . One Gallon Volume ( 4 .5 Litre , or 5 ) with abouta third AIR ( or Froth )
For the BolDor or other 24 hr events , more or less ( oil , Container stays the same ) .

degrssion . http://jamiewaters.com/Frame-5-motorcyc ... 5575020610

Bother .http://www.nortonmuseum-best.nl/pagina4.html Wrong Side . Will hhave to have a word with him . :lol:

" A survivour from the 70's Player Norton era , this space-frame twin
belongs to Norton Club Nederland member Albert van der Heiden. ( lucky sod )
Believed to have been riden by Dave Croxford ,

it has an outrigger
timing side main bearingand a trochoidal oil pump . ( rather large it is too . . . )

Albert hopes
to demonstrate it in Holland and Belguim during 1989 ( Oh Dear , missed it . :? )


So reads the caption on this photograph . A big sucker , say 2 3/4 across , centred on the crank end , about 5 1/2 high , Why , that'd make the pump gears . . . why ? yes indeed . A Trifle Larger , at a good 2 in dia Ea . with the houseing about 2 in wide .oil lead plugs straight in . My sorta oil pump . Yes Sir .