pump flow

Matt Spencer said:

BOTHER , just lost 40 mins tripe writeing , on this ,. THE PROBLEM was , the oil didnt get there . O pressure . HENCE the TROCHOIDAL pump on teh Space Frame Commando . This One , at least .

Further ' Heat Soak " sums it up , re ' rattly ' posible used additives ordinarilly new oil called for . idling , low pressure stinking hot . One Gallon Volume ( 4 .5 Litre , or 5 ) with abouta third AIR ( or Froth )
For the BolDor or other 24 hr events , more or less ( oil , Container stays the same ) .

degrssion . http://jamiewaters.com/Frame-5-motorcyc ... 5575020610

Bother .http://www.nortonmuseum-best.nl/pagina4.html Wrong Side . Will hhave to have a word with him . :lol:

" A survivour from the 70's Player Norton era , this space-frame twin
belongs to Norton Club Nederland member Albert van der Heiden. ( lucky sod )
Believed to have been riden by Dave Croxford ,

it has an outrigger
timing side main bearingand a trochoidal oil pump . ( rather large it is too . . . )

Albert hopes
to demonstrate it in Holland and Belguim during 1989 ( Oh Dear , missed it . :? )


So reads the caption on this photograph . A big sucker , say 2 3/4 across , centred on the crank end , about 5 1/2 high , Why , that'd make the pump gears . . . why ? yes indeed . A Trifle Larger , at a good 2 in dia Ea . with the houseing about 2 in wide .oil lead plugs straight in . My sorta oil pump . Yes Sir .

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The missus asked what i want for christmas :?:
"Give me a trochoidal pump luv..and make it a bigin" :lol:
The frown told me she thought it was perverse :!:

drones76 said:

I am in the process of rebuilding an 850 that has been in storage for a long time. Is there a way to test the oil pump or be reasonably sure it is functioning without running the bike? It does not seem as though there can be anything broken in there other than obvious things like broken or sticking gears.

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The original manual describes a touchy feely method of checking the pump. After washing thoroughly with gas, lube with oil and you should feel some resistance when turning by hand in both directions. It should feel as though it doesn't want to turn at first but then offers just a little resistance once it is moving. Pls read the manual to get the official description.

Being the end plate screws are centre punched it's a bit of a dilemma to pull it apart to visually inspect it when you don't have a parts counter in the neighbourhood as eventually the end plate threads will wear out.

RennieK said:

drones76 said:

I am in the process of rebuilding an 850 that has been in storage for a long time. Is there a way to test the oil pump or be reasonably sure it is functioning without running the bike? It does not seem as though there can be anything broken in there other than obvious things like broken or sticking gears.

Click to expand...

The original manual describes a touchy feely method of checking the pump. After washing thoroughly with gas, lube with oil and you should feel some resistance when turning by hand in both directions. It should feel as though it doesn't want to turn at first but then offers just a little resistance once it is moving. Pls read the manual to get the official description.

Being the end plate screws are centre punched it's a bit of a dilemma to pull it apart to visually inspect it when you don't have a parts counter in the neighbourhood as eventually the end plate threads will wear out.

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Thanks. I don't know how I missed that in the manual. It seems to be fine according to yours and the manuals description.

Aside from metal being fed into the gear teeth, the usual wear is in the end plates which causes some end float in the gears. I don't have access to a pump here but you likely could tap the pump on the bench to bring the gears to the drive side and see if you can push them a significant few thousands with a fine tool though the feed/return orifices just for a secondary check. A good pump should have basically nil end movement even on the keyed drive gear and shaft.

You see sometimes on the endplates a bit of scouring , so its lapped out .Endplate lapped on glass plate / grinding paste . Cleaned THOROUGHLY .
If the end clearance gets excessive , the body is lapped to shorten a thou or so .Maybe the correct end float is 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 thou .Just a notch :?

If gravles gone through the pump gears , and the teath are chewed up , its toast / kaput .

Now while a toothed gear pump is theoritically positive displacement , the Trochoidal pump definately is .
A big relaxed thing working quitely smoothly and efficently . My thinkings that the late 1600 pushrod ford pump has a large enough rotor assy for the scavenge
allowing ' us ' to narrow a second , for the feed . Seeing the housings not a lot more than a offset round bore in a lump of metal , :wink: the more entusiastically equiped among us could soon whip up a fairly usefull device . Annoyingly the two compartments , Feed / Scavenge , require a divider .
This obliges ' us ' to bore the one houseing from both sides for the internals , or have a split / two piece case with a divideing plate .This latter is NOT
good engineering practise . But inevitable if the eqipments limited to a hacksaw & drill press , perhaps .and choping up the cortina / capri items .

Norton heads are not designed at all for hardly any oil cooling even if you increase head flow, oil is rather poor heat conductor. About only heat oil flow can really help with, is the shear spaces it passes thru, not the combustion heat to matter much. I've seen figures that say about 6% of Norton heat is oil handled.

Then you have issue of how to drain the excess oil out of rockers via the tiny rear internal drain and rather small v gap in the lifter bores, which don't seem like even drains over cam lobes directly. If ya can bleieve my study on this about only way to get significant internal cooling is by piston jets. Data points to consider, Japanese found it takes .6 liters Per Minute to reduce crown temps 100' F in piston sizes similar to ours. Real racers with turbo gas and diesels spray up to 3 gallons per minute per jug. That is a lot of oil to both supply and pump out of sump. You can not just add one pump to spray the jets but also need another
to clear excess sump pooling beyond what factory pump can.

Study of Harley oil and engine heat issues reveals an oil cooler only really cools the oil and does nothing to cool head. Zinc-phos nano pad don't form unless oil gets to 200'+ F temps on metal surfaces. That's why periodically starting an engine w/o bringing to full temp wears them out fast.

Comstock said when he tapped any extra oil off factory pump his PSI went to 0.

I've hunted a few seasons for 12v compact oil pumps to find the best there is at RBRacing. A low pressure scavenge pump will not give the jets enough force speed not to be knocked back by wind-age and piston decent - like blowing on a school water fountain stream. Jets can be placed in rear cases, mid line of bores, just below level piston skirt descends to and be aimed to hit piston under side through most of a cycle. Their smallest pump should do Peel jet needs.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm

Crikey , looks lke a bilge pump . Top end aside , Id like to see 80 psi on a pressure guage , after an hour at 7000rpm
or , paticulary after an hour at 7000 rpm , if one were to do that . We can only presume that as Norton werte running in 24 Hr Endurance races at this period , they may well have found it desirable to fit a pump system of which the capability was not questionable . As the top end oil supply is metred , or restricted as to flow , mantaining the oil PRESSURE at a adequate figure should not lead to over oiling , but ensure that ALL the mechanicals are supplied with oil AT the desired PRESSURE .

incedently Croxford was faster at night on one track , as not scared by the sceary , as it wasnt visable . :lol:

Ain't no cheap weak frail bilge pump my friend - might read their URL I left in case you doubt it. If you can find better I am all ears to follow your lead please.
Oil Scavenge Pump Small, 3/8" NPT Male exit/entry, 3 lbs, 2.0" x 4.5", 2 GPM
$225.00

If oil pump bypass mods to recirculate excess oil rather than dumping in TS chest don't allow pumping at least 10 gallon/hr more than factory pump spills into sump then will have to buy a 2nd cheaper low pressure scavenge pump to keep cases from filling up. Next Ms Peel may burn up to 3x's the heat of natural inspired 50 hp Nortons.

I don't race but have stayed over 6000 up to 7500 for 45 minutes a run with ANGRY Sneering squid contesters on past Ms Peel. I had 3 temp sites to watch but only thing that got over heated-melted-ground away were AMC tranny bushes and egos on fat ass water cooled sport bikes in July heats. It only takes a few minutes, like less than 3, to cool a heat soaked Commando back to normal legal cruise temps by holding less than WOT, at least in my cryo tempered dry friction coated past Peel. Now I know more I may have to insulate next Peels OIF to keep oil temps up over 165'F as it reenters engine. You all may expect oil to cool engine, but not me, only the pistons and bearing interfaces. But hey WTF do I know but we'll be finding out in due time.

Looks like youve got it sorted for what youre looking at doing .
Been contemplateing the Maney devises , If they run the standard oil pump ? it's obviously up to the job .
Nevertheless I prefer overkill in oiling and cooling . Running the alloy P-38 Full Throttle up hill when the temp was 36 C or F
or whatever , The 4 row Caddilac radiator and 71 degree thermostat , the temp only came 1/3 the way up the gauge .

Water / Methanol injection would be good for evaporative cooling , preventing detonation and maintaining aceptable
temperatures smokeing it up . Sounds like Drag strip oriented ? ?

If Im looking at anything , its with a Hill climber or Road Race Circuit Bias . Remove weight and Add Simplicity . :wink:

The pump there looks up to the job , looks like it'd handle keeping a 350 Chevy oil pan scavenged , so should be
' sufficent ' .

Hobit's replies to this post are excellent :shock:
He is quite right with His thoughts , adding another pump [straight in-out] is no good, the back to the sump oil needs to be scavanged back to the tank, I agree the cooling effect with a stock Commando pump is very little, other than frictional heat transfer.
The area around the exhaust port's gets extreamly hot and a dribble of oil there ..[and a dribble] is all..well that amount must almost boil, this super heated oil drips down the push rod tunnels, being almost water viscosity..not enough to carry away much of the extream heat being generated...outside air does that.

So , In answer to some posts refering to 24 hour Bol'dor racers, i again think the 100mph plus wind directed in side the engine bay did 90% of the cooling , I would guess the engines where cooler than some road bikes have seen. and no where near as hot as scramblers!

Get the timing and mixture correct will have a greater impact on engine heat that any extra oil, get the bike out onto the open road as soon as possible. where a cool breeze will do the rest.

As Steve rightly states oil is a piss poor conductor..i said piss because thats what the oil would look like in the hot head "well's" :!: Not stating it doe's bugger all, just very little...if Norton {new] Norton installed the commando oil system [god forbid] the press would have given it the just deserved Thumbs down from day one!
1947 -1976 with no change....well did they want ever lasting engines?..the spare parts department where doing very nicely thank you...untill the Combat was born :!: :!:

I remember speaking to Les Emery about top end lube...it was a 650ss i was building, he said " when you start the bike do you place you finger over the oil return hole in the oil tank top for a few moments?" ERR .".No "i replied ..He then said " if you dont the rockers run dry for quite a while" I then converted it to positive feed!

Interesting ; if you disconnect the early feed and hold the pipe above the oil tank level no oil comes out..just the odd bubble :!:

This alone tells me Norton where not interested in long liverity back in the sixties, just old joe buying another in two years!

Back to the original post....more consideration...and thanks to all forum member who spent some time responding to old JRB.. mayby my next post...DOE'S THE COMMADO ENGINE LIKE RUNNING HOT?

Thank you LAB I need reality checks on my against the grain ways now and then. Especially the kind kind that don't injure.

In a past post I did napkin level calculations on the BTU burnt in regular C'do and Ms Peel big blown block, like other normal aspects on C'do Ms Peel has left the building.

post100789.html?hilit=btu#p100789

Guessimating 33% heat converted to motive force/torque, 33% blown out the tail pipe and 33% radiated by engine structure to air. Implies Ms Peel may need to shed 830,000 btu/min vs 250,000 of regular Combat. That's like 66% or 2/3'rds more heat to radiate than a hot factory Combat head.

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Much as it offends others it pleases me that our closest kissing cousins are the Harley big twins. They were seeing hi heat temps and very hi oil temp so factory and racer research showed that adding an effective oil cooler got the oil down from 400's F but did nothing at all to cool the head, just protected oil from coking off. I've spoken with heat transfer engineer that did them electrical power station coolers that use oil in fins and he confirmed the thinner the oil the better the heat transfer.

Most risky area in Peel to cool will be the piston crowns, one for their strength and two for detonation. The BTU level above is in 150 hp and torque range, yep you read that right but shoot who can trust online engine and heating calculators. It would take about all of the factory pump out put to make a dent in the piston crown temps, so only I hope the factory pump with the Hudson's bypass recirculation mods, can pump out 10 g/h or more so I only need extra pump to jet the pistons not clear the sump. I will be using buckets and hoses to actually measure this some day as can't get away with spanking the elites w/o some cheating and secret weapons installed.

Peel's cooling cascade is internals cyrogenitc tempered, dry friction coating, ceramic installing coating, Black Body Emmission coating, Oil in Frame cooling, thinner oil synthetic grade, oil jets and water or CO2 fin spraying, plus geared hi so torque moves the wind not excessive rpms. I want to hit 175 some day but mainly want to float her 3" tucked down front level up to 160 or so and not let off in the turns doing so. I may have to add some ducting like aircraft too.

What makes you think it is over heating , burnt carbon under pistons?, no?, so what good would it do fitting spray tubes.I actually liked one idea I saw on here and that was to run the rocker feed through an oil cooler before going to the head, if the head already has problems getting rid of the oil flooding it won't probably help.These motors appear to have more scavange problems than pumping issues. Just my thoughts on this

Matt Spencer said:

incedently Croxford was faster at night on one track , as not scared by the sceary , as it wasnt visable . :lol:

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Yes he was, but along with your explanation I think it was the cooler night air that the engine inhaled that also allowed the engine to run cooler, that also helped him ride merrily along! :lol:

At the land speed events its the early birds that catch the records d/t the cooler denser air. Got to see this in Texas with the racers crying about lower time slips in early after noon. OF course in a road race everyone is getting the same air density. Road racers often use land marks beyond track to set aim points or braking so darkness may interfere with that, unless some lighted object available after dark.

splatt said:

What makes you think it is over heating , burnt carbon under pistons?, no?, so what good would it do fitting spray tubes.I actually liked one idea I saw on here and that was to run the rocker feed through an oil cooler before going to the head, if the head already has problems getting rid of the oil flooding it won't probably help.These motors appear to have more scavange problems than pumping issues. Just my thoughts on this

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I don't know what an over heated state is, except i had a Triumph trident that melted a piston..i think that was a blocked jet problem. but when the motor was stripped the remaining two showed sign's of excessive heat.
The rocker feed via a oil cooler, would be a waste of time as the amount of oil going to the rockers is so small. oil cooler require full flow.and the std Norton pump just doe's not deliver.
If it is possible to introduce a 3-4 litres per min oil cooler system the engine would run cooler, There is a few Oil cooled bikes around, if engine heat was unimportant water cooling would never happen..engine's can run with closer clearance etc

I would chose a cool running engine,over a stinking hot, rattling motor..i guess that cylinder head bolts are streched to the limit when the temp goes up, then when the heat cools they are loose...Not many water cooled bikes blow head gaskets ...just a thought.