Peel buldt into blower corner = new risk taking

To run 40 mm Maney belt drive with Drouin mounted and no 10mm/1/2" gap in primary cover fit i had to eliminate the Lucas alternator and fab up a 600 watt 3 wire voltage sensing alternator behind the engine cases. Finally dug everything out to mock it all up once to see I can't fit QuiwkSilver flat slide carb as planned.
W/o fancy bends and plumbing and mounts I don't see any carb but a Harley 'Shorty' carb fitting compactly. So reviewing excellent reports of Lake Injector on non-blown applications and Drouin applications seems only down side is the deadly sticking open of Lake flat slide by Drouin suction. Bruce McGregor first started his Drouin mate to mine with Lake Injector and he sensed the sticking hesitation to shut down in garage, so much so he refused to ride out of garage until positive shut off carb installed, which lead to some more carb experiments to get performance up. One Brit Iron list poster told me his daddy was killed in Mt turns by stuck Drouin Lake induction and shot off the cliff face. Kill button should be handy reflex one action shut off, not a hold and hold and hold momentary jokester.

Will try a push/pull dual cable throttle adaptation as Plan C but not sure how to pull that off - so open to ideas and cravats. Needle adjsusts up/dn via screw and top cable trapped by screw about that. Close cable is the tricky part.

Black blob is alternator that bolted to engage distributor gears of dragster engine not a pulley, I must adapt on its tapper no key way shaft. Under belt run jack shaft yet to implement but measured crude enough to imply its shade tree do-able.




Some more views, if run as dead loss battery power for some show off-ing minus 9 lb or so.






Hehe get a load of this air filter for size matters in function impression : )

Always kinda wanted one of those. Neat.

There's a series of NipponDenso units that start at 120 watts and go up to 180 watts that are in every junk yard on earth. Why do you need 600 watts?

I'd hate to see that aluminum transmission plate cradle get twisted and torn by the torque of that thing. Maybe a doubled up steel one?

hindhidehoner, nope, take a 2nd look. 600 watts just happened to be its rating for nicest unit I could find and afford. I'll figure out enough to strain its output don't worry but it should put out most its watts at idle so nil need of battery lead to haul.


Search small hot rod race car alternators to find similar to mine in chrome.
Mine has a two part cush drive I may or may not incorporate. I experimented with a gold paint pen, don't like it so no photo till repainted presentable.

Steve, you are a magnificent pagan god.

What kind of horsepower/torque numbers do you suppose or dyno past tested does this setup produce over stock? What rpms can you safely run without valve float?

I thought you had run the blower previously. What did you do with the alternator/charging setup then that you are having problems fitting now?

What a great project this is. Mrs. Hobot must be a candidate for Sainthood.

This is a great idea... I am too chicken to try it but I had the idea a couple of time!!! Does the Drouin push through the carbs or after them? How do you make an anti-blowback valve, on the manifold? water injection? why not use a smaller alternator like an Alton or a Kubota as mentioned? Do you really need 600w? If yes please do tell for what :wink:
Philippe

Duh dude, I know I'm a 'saint' just ask my wife, she'll a - well you know.
I do take some pride in figuring new ways to do stuff, to expand around Ms Peel's Center of Universe - Patton Posterior stabilizer. Peel is last ever dream machine project. I had a few - Chevy Wonder Van and party size jet boat we' tease in the jet ski's all tucked down, then gave it more rpms as our party of 9 waved bye bye with our brew's held high. Both succumbed to over rev events while sitting still. Same with past Peel. Saint status and karma sucks big time, looking at most the examples - ugh.

Power wise, is hard thing to even speak about on an engine like Peels. Depends on how much octane and rpm per ignition advance. Calculators imply 15 % water added to fuel flow mass will give octane that allows full timing for max torque pressure burn. The calculators kinda go nutz once octane tops 112 - yet water calculators imply 116 on tap. The way I look at it is by torque per mass, as not that interested in top speeds. Rocket III's will make more torque but nullified by the excess mass. May have to hit up my 92 yr old Aunt for TT gearbox before she goes. With that Peel will be bullet proof but for animals and my errors, no way to tear her up no matter how hard abused.

Steve Maney 920 dyno'd, 100.4 hp @ 7200, so assuming Peel hits 80-ish with the small ports and valves, I conservatively add 40% for 120 hp/110 lb ft. as realistic. But drag race calculators of wt/power with over 112 octane, imply 9 sec 1/4 ET's if traction to hook it up. Yet there's racer Murry dual engine Triumph topping 170 mph low 8 sec ET's on 4" slick, so who knows. I figure I only need 10 sec ET to stay ahead of 200 hp bikes for a 1/4 mile in opens with the advantage gained where Peel really Acceles, cornering!

So if I ever attempt a dyno record, Peel is built to take 8000+ rpm and Drouin's
exponential air flow curve per rpm, don't top out by then. Then again its not just throttle opening that makes centrifugal blowers deliver the goods, its how Fast pilot can stand to snap throttle open to load the pumps. Tom Drouin and Bruce MacGregor both reach 12 PSI, others barely 8-10 before giving in.

'Snail-Turbo's' are not kompressors, they are air slinging fan pumps that trade velocity for pressure, not like a hand pump, they don't not heat by compression nor top out on flow capacity like positive displacement superchargers, which come on all at once make a set boost till then peter out. Can ya imagine controlling Peel on THE G... or wet sod if each piston hit spun tire, ugh.
Mainly its just the plumbing resistance that limit turbo rpm type flow.
I do expect Peel not to lug and stall or cough at a dead idle with some what high throttle to climb slick varying steeps at constant rate. Oh yeah, 7:1 ratio so 7000 crank rpm = 49,000 impeller, 8000 = 56,000. Turbo bearing installed.

I also expect to make Peel as wheelie immune as my ole P!! w/o a wheelie bar.
But if that rears its ugly head, I've another 'secret' weapon, mainly intended for even more corner traction and carrying a few cases of beer plus camp site kit.

Calculators imply that @ 8000 rpm, 12 PSI boost, CHO head port venturi speeds are still below super sonic shock turbulence restriction. Dyno graph should = /.
Thats how I want it delivered, before entries and lean, then may not even have to lean. Its the main thing I am thinking about on developing Peel's power plant.
Lets just say if engine can take a max out, only a hand full of elite factory bikes can top it and they all weight like 100 lb more and make rather less torque.

Push Rod Power band I want has one main purpose, to ignore all wheel inertia lag at speed to set rear spin exactly as I want when I want regardless of anything but exact snap to throttle position, then bike and me can catch up as we may. Road race bikes don't spin tire in straights, they wheelie first, its when they begin a wee bit of lean, poor corner cripples. I need Drouin big block to cool off some their sprinting steam and explore phase 5 handling - no hesitation acceleration though turns. Phase 3 - 4, lose instants of it so brain sloshes back to front instead of back of skull where I like it. Phase 2 is for sight seeing, phase 1 parking lots.
Yet phase 5 is same as phase one and the same snake biting its own tail.

Listen very very close to elite race video entering turns that require over 45', trailing power bands and brake lights of all things, Not On Your Life On Peel.

With 600 watts of alternator are you, secretly, building a hybrid?

I admire your creativity and balls; my impression was that Drouins were, mostly, for show bikes, as they can easily turn your motor into a granade, but you knew this (I found it somewhat ironic that you have a 45 ACP round in two of your pictures inside the blower housing). I simply don't have the balls or the bank roll to challenge physics and strength-of-materials, but I'm glad that you do, seriously, "going where no man has gone before".

Just asking, but what are you doing to the rest of the engine to support all this extra torque/HP? Norton's, no matter how well the engines are built don't put out 100+ HP for long. With your Drouin even at modest boost your effective CR must be well above 11:1, won't you be wed to 110/120 octane rated race gas?

I know that you are a problem solver, good luck, at the very least your machine will be highly visually stimulating, the bits sure are...

RS

RoadScholar, I've spent last 5-6 years gleaning what racers use to survive power and rpm. Peels basics are Steve Maney cases/barrels, Geoff Collins welded up nitrided crankshaft, Schimdt's piston-rod kit and Dreer race valve kit in CHO head with drag strip only cam. All cryogenic tempered and ceramic to dry friction coated.
She should stand 8000 for a time, but plan is never even hit near redline as torque
monster and gearing should fling me as fast as i can stand. Peel main purpose besides just nice cargo commuter ride is to wipe up the elite bikes in the tighter more technical tracks where top speeds are around 100 mph. I think Peel may be able to sprint up to 160 as fast or faster than elites which are wheelie prone.
I've run on wheelie prone moderns and run against them on 750 Peel to be amazing how fast I could pull ahead of them while they were having to hold back d/t front grabbing air. With 3" fork tuck down, they may not have a chance
to use a fraction of power on tap till sprinting in opens is won by Peel.

Over lap long duration cam give effective 'static' CR of ~7.5, but when rpms rise and the cam starts packing in above 100% efficiency and boost hits, Dynamic CR may soar close to 17:1. Mixture amounts being combusted or at least run thru should be equivalent to 1400 cc n/a engine.

You can NOT judge the riding I write about as if it applied to any other bike unless comparing Ice Spiked flat trackers or hill climbers on rear tire only.
Peel is not dangerous or even much effort to out ride by a couple to 3 ways around faster-harsher than what's seen in elite road racers, pashaw.
She's was like a shift faster thru turns just staying in ho hum two tire planted leaned counter steering daily commute rates. Flabbergastingly Fabulous!

I get sneered at in Ozarks by squids and on forums by vintage riders. So hope to wipe some smirks off on track day timing, then really get into it for my own orgasms. If I can get entered i'd love to contest up Pikes Peak seeking to beat the 1000 hp 4wd rally wonders, bikes are not on my mind as any competition.
Its VERY dangerous to hop on a potent modern and ride going by the G's forces
Peel takes in stride. Mean while the process to get there is rather exciting and full of mystery to $olve. Message is only the Patton Rear Stablizer really matters on Peel, all the rest is mostly flash and glamor for some extra top end and conversation pieces, like here. Up to about 110 mph Combat power was enough.

hobot

Steve are you saying that the stock primary outer cover will not fit with the 40MM Maney belt set up? Then I would ebay it and go back to the original primary set up.
After all ,if Nortons came original with belts then some of us would change them to chain!
You will get all the power you ever wanted with the Drouin set up right.
Dont screw around with the H#%**Y carb, go straight to the 40MM Lectron powerjet carb with a 5-1 needle set@ 1.990".
You dont need to hang an external 600 watt alternator unless you are going to do the BaHa 500
Its time to get Peel up & Blown.
Bruce

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irjVzebbyQ8[/video]

Steve, I think you should take up a safer hobby, this bozo couldn't even break 100mph on his lawnmower, I know with that blower you could do better... and you could put a goat/deer guard on the front! :mrgreen:

hobot said:

Steve Maney 920 dyno'd, 100.4 hp @ 7200, so assuming Peel hits 80-ish with the small ports and valves, I conservatively add 40% for 120 hp/110 lb ft. as realistic.

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For the enquiring minds on the forum, that was 100.4 hp at the crank, not the rear wheel. Just making sure we're comparing apples to apples here. At the rear wheel, that looks like somethng in the 80s. Lots of argument over how much loss there is in drive train and rear tire flex, and it varies a lot between bikes, but 15% is a common assumption for the loss. Jim Comstock might have a more accurate value for Nortons. He did a lot of dyno testing back in the day, but I don't know if he ever compared crankshaft numbers with rear wheel numbers.

I'm not knocking Steve's engines. He builds great stuff, and that's a good number for a 920 engine. I'm a real fan of his work. Stock bike is lucky to make 50 at the rear wheel on an accurate dyno.

Ken

Hey ho Bruce. My last resort is to return to wet triplex chain as you know, Drouin case has seals for the old oil filled primary. I want least mass any-every where as possibly practical. Maney 30 mm belt drive with his modified inner cover and alternator stator mount ring will allow Lucas charger to fit under factory cover air-oil tight. 40 mm pulleys push the stator out for a gap in factory cover or Drouin cover-mount. Oh don't ya know I sweated bullet to decide between a rim spacer or re-engineer charger system-drive. What decided me is Peel's 30' angles to road clearance. Can have Drouin stick out more than Tom designed it too.
Maney out rigger bearing mount also essentially requires a dry case d/t the inner case cut out to clear the out rigger holder. I did seal Peel's though to keep water and grit out, not oil in.

What decided me to go to 920 instead of 750 was the Ducati 1098 and now 1198
and SR1000. They can sprint longer than old Peel in the easy opens. Need to nullify that advantage. But Peel has a rump rod and narrow tires and articulated power pulse dampening chassis, so will have to put foam blocks to see if the V rated tires expand too much going over their rating quick as I can. Couldn't afford a FullAuto head, so Ken here graciously converted my CHO 750 head to fit.
I've read test report on these super elites and they suck in town and none of testers take em off road nor ain't heard of em on Pike Pike type event yet.
I think Peel mis-match of 750 size induction will tame drag cam down low w/o much throttle then come on cam with Drouin with just a bit more throttle.

Peel get air borne at one or both ends in phase 3 and 4 turns and off road too.
Less mass to pick up and catch matters. Drouin is ~15 lb, so about a wash removing chain gang.


Ken I can only think crank power as that is what most engine calculators out put and what Maney told me his dyno measures. I assume Peel w/o boost may hit 80 crank hp near 7000. I've seen reports of same bikes on crank then rw dyno and most sport bike drive trains only suck out like 10% at most, some less. 15% is cage scale friction.

So 92+ hp is what I'd bet Maney or Cummings can get at rear patch. Nortons are on low friction side of the scale. I guesstimate Drouin up to mid 6000 rpm may add 40% more power on top of the 80. But all of Drouin literature claim 58%. We all know advertised hp ain't always delivered hp, but if turns out 50% d/t the wild cam, whoa. I have a hard time believing calculators out put - going over 7000 rpm with physics of vane blowers with exponential air delivery curve and no knock octane. 20% bigger engine to feed does not mean 20% lower boost!
Oh oh. Calc's also imply almost 100 lb-ft just off idle. Crazy.

I think if Lake Inj. get a good pull shut cable that should do it. A Lectron carb is just a fancy Lake injector with a fuel bowl, same designer and design as my too big QuiwKSilver carbs. I will file the needle size Bruce and will study up on air relief ports and friction-vibration physics and show Comstock the goods this wke end at LOP Texas.

I hope the wildlife in your area are raedy for this hotbot!

FWIW when i ran my Seeley on a Bosch rolling road, we measured 7 BHP loss through the drivetrain...71 at the wheel, 78 at the crank.

I helped a friend from school put one on his '71 back in the day. The guillotine "carb" was the first thing he got rid of. It would just dump the fuel right on the ground when the bike was not running. Also the slide would get sucked hard against the housing and stick open. The vaned rotor did not come balanced and he had to take it to a shop to have it done per Tom Drouin (spins at 7x RPM = 49000 rpm max) which cost him a lot. He used a regular carb on it (big one) and got it to work after some jetting changes. He finally ended up taking the whole thing off after a year or two of fooling with it and I'm pretty sure he just put it out with the trash before he moved to the west coast! He said some improvement was there but barely noticeable and not worth all the trouble. I drove it and it just felt like a very strong Norton - maybe 10% better than my combat. He spent a lot of money on phone calls to Tom Drouin all along the way and we just did what he told us to do. This was field R&D.

Not saying that yours will be as bad but just that they were pretty far from "plug and play" and I think that is putting it very kindly.

Steve, where will you take the drive for the alternator? From the timing chest or from the primary drive?

Jean

FWIW when i ran my Seeley on a Bosch rolling road, we measured 7 BHP loss through the drivetrain...71 at the wheel, 78 at the crank.

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OK this helps calibrate my shade tree conclusions on judging power making and draining, 78/71 = ~9%. I'd love a separate post on what 70 rwhp feels like, allows you to do or prevents ya from doing? Pleasing to me but may be scary to rest of ya, if I'm that close to reality on a number of things expressed about Peel vs the world. Elite Norton racers claim upper 90's hp, similar to Maney. so do the math.

I've already done the riding circles around other craft tests but 4 wd drive sports cars, only the extra power, less spun-sprung mass and 130 tire and new CoG remain as mystery - well besides if I can live with the Lake Injector. I'm a bit huffed about hill climb test against hopped up light 4wd off road sport truck, where best a sedan can climb in same conditions is barely over 40 mph in 400 yd.
Constant best spin power 4wd PU posti-track mud knobber ice spiked tires could hit 65, Ms Peel on 120 dual purpose 80-on/20-off tire hit 75 in her stride, only held back d/t 90' sharp blind turn at top with fence barrier, so thats as fast as I could chance using side slide power cuts to negotiate it leaving some reserves to dodge tractor or deer. Ain't no way I ever cut corners in places like this, so no wide luxury swings on wide of road way like a track allows.

I guarantee THE G is similar to having 100 lb-ft/120 rwhp on pavement at far over leans, but pavement is kids play, as almost instant hook up on power or load cuts, not so on Marbles and Arrow heads. Wylie Coyote cartoon image flashes up, he's riding on shoulder of his huge robot typing commands his remote control box, STOP! WHOA! HALT!, ALTO!, QUIT!, CEASE!, ARREST! SHUT OFF!... OH SHIT! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>plunge>>>>>>> Plop* Puff...

Off to LOP to see if anyone there has insight on how best to afix and route and work 40 mm of slide pull down safety. Another thing that tells me Peel is way ahead of the pack besides no joy ride descriptions of phase 3-5 steering, ie: in and out of reversed control states, NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE MOST VITAL
thing in handling excess power - or the real value of short action WOT - to

STOP! WHOA! HALT!, ALTO!, QUIT!, CEASE!, ARREST! SHUT OFF!

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