More power is always better ?

MexicoMike said:

I used to be in the camp of, "There is no such thing as too much power!" (for cars or bikes). But like others I discovered that it didn't translate to ME being noticeably faster around a track.

Nonetheless, even after trying my hand at racing for a couple of years and discovering I did not have the talent to be a competitive pro racer I continued on with buying more and more powerful sport bikes for street use. My AHA! moment came one day when riding a Ducati 999 back in '06. It sunk in that I couldn't use more than maybe 30% of that bike's capability on a public road. I bought my 1973 Commando later that year. Although I still own newer, much more powerful bikes, I enjoyed the Commando more with its (alleged) 50HP. Last year I graduated to even LESS power and now have a lot of fun when riding on twisty, narrow roads using all 36 of my 1976 Honda CB400F's horses!

So...I've finally gone over to embrace that old car/bike saying and agree that "It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow!" My younger self would be appalled if he knew that in 2024 he would choose to buy/ride a 36HP motorcycle in preference to something like a 220HP Ducati Panigali!

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When I was young, I used to be an adrenalin junkie. These days I take beta-blockers which stop adrenalin. It makes it much easier to race a motorcycle - you just do what needs to be done, without the rush. There is always plenty of time.

A lot depends on what track you ride on. Tracks with long straights needs lots of power. On twistier tracks lighter bikes goes better. On a light bike you can brake later and have higher cornering speed.
Comparing my 350 Manx at 143 kg with my CB250 at 120 kg, the Honda is faster, less power and a fairing with much less frontal area. But the RDLC at 110 kilos and more power is fastest.

o0norton0o said:

Yeah, He specified steeper angled forks, so the trail was reduced which made the bikes....... Wait for it,..... LESS STABLE, and inexperience riders were occasionally crashing their bikes... Norton changed the offset and fork angle to increase the trail number and made the bike MORE STABLE...
Right????

LESS Trail = Less STABLE
MORE trail = More STABLE

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How do you change the angle of the forks on a Commando without changing the rake ? I suggest that Peter Williams increased the yoke offset which reduces the trail. It is unusual to have fork yokes which create a slope. The staunchions are usually parallel with the steering head.

acotrel said:

How do you change the angle of the forks on a Commando without changing the rake ? I suggest that Peter Williams increased the yoke offset which reduces the trail. It is unusual to have fork yokes which create a slope. The staunchions are usually parallel with the steering head.

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You're on the wrong thread Al - this one's about not having power is better - apparently???

acotrel said:

The staunchions are usually parallel with the steering head.

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On featherbed Nortons you could buy yokes for sidecar use. With less trail.

“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.”
― Mark Donohue

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
-- Mario Andretti

If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower.
-- Mark Donohue

No, it will never have enough power until I can spin the wheels at the end of the straightaway in high gear. Too much power is never enough.
-- Mark Donohue

If you don't come walking back to the pits every once in a while holding a steering wheel in your hands, you're not trying hard enough
-- Mario Andretti

Racebikes now do have too much power for the riders and have had for quite a long time. The riders are totally dependent on the programming of the Traction Control to save them from crashing. Without that the carnage would be awful.
About 5 years ago a slight change was made to all of the Traction Control programming in GP racing. The riders had an awful time adjusting. There were multiple crashes, slower laps times ( almost worse than a crash!) and calls to return to the earlier programming which was actually a stronger Nanny situation.
So yes, we are way past the point where any human can safely harness 250 bhp on one little wheel, no matter how talented he is. We need computers to do it for us. We could probably go one step further and remove the rider entirely but allow freedom with computer programming. Then the race would be won by the team with the best computer programming.

Glen

FWIW, on my BMW R1200RS you can be in a turn and go to WOT. The bike's computer control will automatically add power as the traction can accept. Well, that's what the manual and road tests say. I've never been able to work up the nerve to try it! ')

I have tried this on the Thruxton R. At first it was a weird feeling to sense the bike deciding what its power output should be rather than me controlling it with the throttle.
It works perfectly!
I much prefer riding with TC on rather than off.
My Daytona 955i has about 60% more hp than the Thruxton and a bit less weight, but no TC.
It is a very dangerous motorcycle because of the high hp and lack of TC.
I try to keep that in mind when riding it.

The best solution and one I generally opt for is to ride the Commando instead!

Glen

I had fully working and rider adjustable traction control on my Commando 30 years ago but nobody else was interested.

I'm not sure that a Commando has enough oomph to benefit from TC controlling wheel slippage from excess power on asphalt.
Mine sure don't!
That might be why they are so much fun.

Glen

On Winton Raceway, the slowest corner is right over at the back of the circuit. The speed that I get around that hairpin tells me if my bike is fast enough. It is taken at about 50MPH and my bike always loses traction there. But I suggest the most important thing is to be able to accelerate very hard when you are on a lean at high speed in a corner. The bike needs to be more upright and the power delivery needs to be very strong and smooth. Most large 4 cylinder bikes and two-strokes need to be upright and pointed before they really go. For them, that is usually as they are almost out of the corner. With my bike the transition point between braking and accelerating is probably not even in the corner -it might be before I even enter the corner. I usually brake into the corner then when I am inside it, I immediately accelerate hard and let the bike do the steering. It is a bit disconcerting the first time, but you become used to doing it. The problem is the speed differential as you leave the corner. When the other guys have not really got going. When you pass another bike too fast, it can cause a crash. What I find is I usually arrive at the end of the next straight with the faster bikes around me. They catch up with top end power - faster down the straights but slower in the corners.

If you watch MotoGP these days, the bikes are like flies stuck to a wall. They usually line astern on curves, at high lean angle at highly controlled power.- nobody can accelerate past the others. The passing moves are when they get out of shape in very tight corners. The circuits are probably designed to suit that style of riding. I like to have my bike well under me when it loses traction.

On wet roads, crossing white lines, cats eyes, manhole covers, cattle grids, railway level crossings, oil & diesel soils, muck from farm vehicles —-

My traction control has been burned into my brain by about 5 high speed crashes, many years ago. It is amazing how sensitive you become to what your tyres are doing. And you never forget. There was a time when I had not raced for 20 years. It took me 5 laps of Winton, and I was fast enough again. I know what pain is.

hybridracer said:

On wet roads, crossing white lines, cats eyes, manhole covers, cattle grids, railway level crossings, oil & diesel soils, muck from farm vehicles —-

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Riding on public roads is much more dangerous than riding on a controlled motor race circuit. When you watch motorcycle road racing, it looks dangerous. And when you watch a motorcycle on a public road, it looks safe. When you see guys crash doing MotoGP, they usually slip off when doing silly things in corners - they don't usually do cart-wheels at ultra-high speed. A bike at high speed is usually extremely stable. If you need to be brave to road race, you probably should not do it. What worries me is hitting other bikes, and being hit from behind on the start line. I always look to see who is behind me in the next row.

hybridracer said:

I had fully working and rider adjustable traction control on my Commando 30 years ago but nobody else was interested.

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Do tell..

hybridracer said:

On wet roads, crossing white lines, cats eyes, manhole covers, cattle grids, railway level crossings, oil & diesel soils, muck from farm vehicles —-

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I can't say that any of those have been an issue in 20 years on the Commando. I guess I just naturally slow down and take it easy in those situations. I can see that Traction Control even on a low hp bike could be a useful safety item though.

When I went from the 50-60 hp Commando and Vincent to the 160 bhp Daytona even perfect dry weather traction wasn't enough at times.
The Thruxton R has a rain mode that is very nice in the rain. Traction Control needs some wheel slippage to kick in whereas the rain mode slows all throttle response so that wheel slippage is unlikely. I use it on all wet roads.

Glen

hybridracer said:

I had fully working and rider adjustable traction control on my Commando 30 years ago but nobody else was interested.

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Kill switch?

Slipping clutch?

I have never use rain mode on my Thruxton, but I do like to have a play in the rain when the roads are a bit wet, but I still ride to the conditions as well, as soon as I fire up my Thruxton I hit sports mode straight away, just can't help myself lol, but I always have TC on but sometimes its fun to have it turned off, I have very good gripping tyres on all my bikes even in the rain I do know their limits.
But I have been caught out traveling in big down pours once starting a 400km trip to too just get out of town for rain to hit and didn't let up till I got to my destination, by the time I stopped to put my raining gear on my leather jacket was starting to soak through so I put my rain jacket under my leather. in some places it was so hard I was just following tail lights.
TC on a Commando wouldn't that just be hand on throttle control ???.

People would have you believe The ' A ' was built specifically for DAYTONA , and ' as set up ' was useless anywhere else . First Change to do was the fish oil 2 in travel rear shocks .

I wonder what frame they copied . Like the Suzuki , the later monoshock ones mightve steered . A Firm Hand is a polite way of describeing
the necesary riding tecnique .

Later BROADER powerbands made the less homicidel . A far cry from a weenie 250 / 350 TZ , with typical 18 yr old 8 stone nutter rider .
Hanging on , teeth clenched . If you Double the inertia ( 750 ) then to double the the rider muscle might do it , if it isnt a ' whip iron '.

One Inch Diameter main frame loop tube must have staggering load carrying capeability . I declined the opertunity to bend one ,
Described as trying to ' cross the road ' at the Pukekohe back straight kink , at 180 . 130 into pit straigt exit bend , drift . 90 left . m.p.h. .
as the ' dogs ' ( tyres ) were onit since Daytona , and it was said to be for a museum , I thought the risk of a fault could be catastrophic .
Mechanically of inner tubeally . Grotty old race bike. Needed a polish & service . Ring ding ding . When theres Vincents in the shed .



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Progress is fine, but it's gone on for too long.​

Expression . " will it , wont it , might it . MAKE IT . " hangonand hope . No wonder he got the George Medal .



Definately classified as to much power . Or Is That Not enough Handling . Or isit Road Holding .



Of course, they had it easy . as the roads were sealed , in those days .