Lithium Ferrous Battery Review

montelatici · May 12, 2012

After reading some reviews about these batteries on the Guzzi forum I frequent, I decided to try one of these batteries out for my Norton MK3. The Guzzi guys recommended the 12 cell for the 1200 motor of the Guzzi I have but the application chart on the vendor's website indicated that the 8 cell was appropriate. I have used the normal batteries for years and more recently the AGM (absorbed glass mat) type hoping they would perform better and last longer. I rarely get over 2 years on any battery, AGM included. Plus, I rarely get 3-4 shots at the starter. With the 220 CCA 14 AH AGM batteries going for nearly $100, I thought I'd give the 8 cell Lithium at $130 on EBAY a shot.

http://www.ballisticparts.com/products/ ... teries.php

When it arrived I was stunned at the size, about a third the size of the standard size, and the weight (1 lb. 10 oz.). I was so stunned I figured I made a huge mistake as this thing did not look like it could possibly turn the engine over. I was very wrong. I hadn't started my Norton for nearly a year and knew that it would be a bear to start. Two days ago I decided to start the engine. The Boyer ignition plat had slipped in the fall and I hadn't timed the bike so that was another starting problem.

Anyway, I got on the starter and sure enough there was no sign of life at first. After about 5 tries it finally started but immediately stopped after the float bowels drained from the tickling. This happened another 5 or 6 times, but finally with so deft throttle work I was able to keep it running for a few minutes. The idle circuit was obviously gummed up so I poured half a can of Sea Foam in the tank and eventually got a weak idle and this resulted in another fair number of start cycles. The little battery performed like no other battery I have had in the bike. On a ride I noticed another benefit. The blinkers actually blink almost like a normal blinker when before the right blinker blinked about once every five seconds and the left one hardly ever, I blinked it manually!. With this battery the right blinker now blinks about once a half second and the left about once every second and a half.

Anyway, I recommend this battery for those who may need to replace their batteries. I am extremely pleased. There is a 3 year warranty on the battery too.

shrugger · May 12, 2012

hmm, wonder if the 4 cell would be enough for us kick starters. 8 A/H is certainly enough for my Triumph T120.

DogT · May 12, 2012

Mine starts just fine with a 2AH. But not with the headlamp on.

OB likes them. http://www.oldbritts.com/70_shorai.html

Dave
69S

shrugger · May 12, 2012

Some of the Triumph K/S only guys have been using 7AH Alarm batteries. About 2/3rds the size of a regular battery. $14+s/h :shock:
Don't know how long lived they are though.

DogT · May 12, 2012

The alarm batteries are gel cells. Not recommended for high vibration situations. They're cheap enough though.

Dave
69S

montelatici · May 12, 2012

shrugger said:
Some of the Triumph K/S only guys have been using 7AH Alarm batteries. About 2/3rds the size of a regular battery. $14+s/h :shock:
Don't know how long lived they are though.

They are 7 AMP Hour, about half the standard battery, doubt it will turn the starter motor on a big twin.

shrugger · May 12, 2012

No it wouldn't be much help with ES

montelatici · May 12, 2012

DogT said:
Mine starts just fine with a 2AH. But not with the headlamp on.

OB likes them. http://www.oldbritts.com/70_shorai.html

Dave
69S

After reading a few reviews, I now know why these lithiums work so much better than than lead acid batteries on the inefficient Norton starter. The voltage when cranking is over 10V on the lithiums while down around 7 volts with the lead acid.

bwolfie · May 12, 2012

I have the 8ah, ballistic. I love it. I put it in my xs650, bored out to 750. It almost turned it over with the ES. Needs a 12AH battery for proper operation. On the kick start it started first kick. I have been thru 3 lead acid and 2 agm batteries in the last 6 years. The start system is very weak and needs work. I am going to get an 8 cell ballistic for it. I have the 4 cell for my alloy norton project. Buried in the seat. So far it's awesome. and only 14 oz. The future is here, embrace it.

Hobot · May 12, 2012

Ms Peel did her whole couple of years fantastic life style creeping in woods after dark to creeping in big city rain traffic on 1.2 ah gel cell, but would not idle but a a couple minutes before stalling below charging rpm of 1600 rpm or so. 8 ah and above is for ES and camp site shaver and hair drier. Hardly anyone I know uses headlight to light camp sites very long, otherwise what the sense of lugging around useless mass and cluttering space. Li chemistry stays at full volts longer but has sharper drop off at the end of reserves than lead battery. If ya really want to spin them old starters might think about a new age ultra capasitor that acts like a electric motor starter booster.

worntorn · May 12, 2012

I put one of the 12 cell jobs under the seat hump of the Glenli.
Right now it is just doing normal battery duty on a 1000 cc kickstart motor, but next year it will be running the estart for a high compression 1360 motor. I expect it will be up to the job. Just 2.5 pounds and the power is equal to some car batteries.

Glen

pete.v · May 13, 2012

Just a note on charging systems, balance is the key. This should be a matching system. That is to say a 130 stator to a 8 to 10 ah battery and a 180 or 200 watt stator to a 12 to 14ah battery. A small stator and a large battery will more than likely over tax the stator and both the battery and stator will fail prematurely. Conversely, a high output stator and a low ah battery will tax support items like the Podtronics units or the stock regulators.
People are trying to save money and attain a lighter bike by buying a low ah lithium battery. This is all well and good if it matches the rest of the system. This is a simple matter of physics and common sense.

There is more to the battery than just starting. Do you really ride with no lights on?

If you have an ES then it’s gonna cost you. Ah’s and CCA’s are what costs. Either a 200 watt or a three phase stator will be requires to make it happy efficient, and reliable.

To repeat, balance is the key to a reliable and effective charging. And remember, this is a closed system, charging system feeds the battery, battery feeds the bike.

After doing a little research I have found that the Lithium would be great for the kickstarted where as a lead acid is better suited for the ES due to its sudden surge capabilities. Yes, there are some lithium batteries that have a surge capability but this feature is very degradable where as the lead acid loves a good surge once in a while. Remember, lead acids have memory.

This isn't to say that I won't get a lithium one someday.

Hobot · May 13, 2012

Naw its was a non issue on Ms Peel to run either the small truck battery ~24 ah and 15 lb Wes gave me in a pinch, or, a tiny fit in back jean pocket wallet size gel cell 1.2 ah alarm battery. Lucas or Sparx chargers are both up to handling any size battery you can fit, just small ones can't idle as long before volts drop and stall. The bigger battery would not charge up to point of cell equalization, ie: boiling cells on charging, so grid charger now and then helped extend big battery life. My threshold of feeling mass differences is about 7-8 lb. equal to about one hp gain in spunk or a bit easier to toss in turns. That equals a center stand or all the spacers and plates drilled out or a little over a gallon of gasoline or couple good bowel dumps or riding w/o a jacket, one half an exhaust system, two tubeless tires, a quart.5 low oil, alloy cradle or skipping a couple meals.

24 ah size pre-Ms Peel could barely fit.

1.2 ah Ms Peel carried zip tied to spine so more cargo room behind the side cover

bluto · May 13, 2012

pvisseriii said:
Just a note on charging systems, balance is the key. This should be a matching system. That is to say a 130 stator to a 8 to 10 ah battery and a 180 or 200 watt stator to a 12 to 14ah battery. A small stator and a large battery will more than likely over tax the stator and both the battery and stator will fail prematurely. Conversely, a high output stator and a low ah battery will tax support items like the Podtronics units or the stock regulators.
People are trying to save money and attain a lighter bike by buying a low ah lithium battery. This is all well and good if it matches the rest of the system. This is a simple matter of physics and common sense.

snip

That is not correct, the output of the stator is only determined by rpm and had NOTHING to do with load, unused power is converted to heat by the zener diode....this is because the rotor is a permanent magnet, if it were an electromagnet then it would be possible to vary the stator output depending on demand. An undersized stator would probably fail to keep a large battery charged but would not be working any harder itself...

Hobot · May 13, 2012

pvisseriii is correct only in the sense of balancing factory economics with what people will put up with cost and hassle wise. Ideally the charger should just match the max power draw to keep battery topped w/o boiling off fluid. Best arrangement battery vs draw vs rpm to charge is to keep up with all the drains while idling, instead of no quite keeping up so Brit Iron can't idle for long till stalls for lack of spark. Clever designers and bean counters protected our bikes from the destructive effects of being able to sit at slow idle blow by oil polluting coking and lack of oil pressure damage. My Trixie Combat and my buddies Bonnie and Norton all work just fine on pure factory items and battery as long as we don't sit and idle long or travel too slowly after dark on off pavement paths. I have run Peel 1.2 ah battery down in rainy stop-go city traffic so couldn't spark the Boyer once stopped w/o a push off. You can kick off a analog Boyer w/o battery but its takes karate kick over speed and a few tries to catch fire again.

worntorn · May 13, 2012

If the system uses Podtronics,rather than a Zener, then it gets more complicated. The Thyristors in the podtronics regulator control output at an earlier stage so that once the desired battery voltage is reached, a small amount of power going to ground reduces the overall output to zero, if that makes any sense.
I think a battery that is too small can be annoying, but doesnt seem to have any ill effect on the charging system. Because of space constraints, Ive run a teeny 5ah battery in my touring Rapide for years, no problems, just dont accidently leave the headlight on and go for breakfast

The Lithium ion battery will help, with its much smaller size for a given AH, there will finally be space for something with a decent resevoir of power.

Glen

montelatici · May 13, 2012

pvisseriii said:
Just a note on charging systems, balance is the key. This should be a matching system. That is to say a 130 stator to a 8 to 10 ah battery and a 180 or 200 watt stator to a 12 to 14ah battery. A small stator and a large battery will more than likely over tax the stator and both the battery and stator will fail prematurely. Conversely, a high output stator and a low ah battery will tax support items like the Podtronics units or the stock regulators.
People are trying to save money and attain a lighter bike by buying a low ah lithium battery. This is all well and good if it matches the rest of the system. This is a simple matter of physics and common sense.

There is more to the battery than just starting. Do you really ride with no lights on?

If you have an ES then it’s gonna cost you. Ah’s and CCA’s are what costs. Either a 200 watt or a three phase stator will be requires to make it happy efficient, and reliable.

To repeat, balance is the key to a reliable and effective charging. And remember, this is a closed system, charging system feeds the battery, battery feeds the bike.

After doing a little research I have found that the Lithium would be great for the kickstarted where as a lead acid is better suited for the ES due to its sudden surge capabilities. Yes, there are some lithium batteries that have a surge capability but this feature is very degradable where as the lead acid loves a good surge once in a while. Remember, lead acids have memory.

This isn't to say that I won't get a lithium one someday.

I think the Norton stator can't be "overloaded" by a big battery, it is charging according to RPM and no more with whatever battery you have in there.

As far as starting capability:

Note: Shorai LFX is one of the Lithium batteries made for bikes and powersports.

"Lead-acid makers have therefore used AHr(capacity) ratings as shorthand to indicate cranking ability, rather than a real usable capacity. The lead-acid capacity rating itself is based on a complete discharge at a low discharge rate. Under actual cranking conditions they will deliver considerably less than spec capacity. And because lead-acid batteries begin sulfating when only a small percentage of the capacity has been used, and their internal resistance rises as they are discharged, the actual capacity which can be USED may be as little as 20% of the mfg. rating. Discharge in excess will not only damage the lead-acid battery, it may not allow proper starting as voltage sags."

and

Hobot · May 13, 2012

Yep Li chemistry beats lead for the useful load carried. My special will have 3 wire alternator with a variable voltage sensor to the field coils out put so can idle indefinitely with full current drains, up to 600 watts. On my stock Combat i put in a $35 4.5 ah lead battery form Wallmart for less cost of mass to lug around. After returns on rides with hi beam it still measures over 12 v the next day.

Hobot · Apr 17, 2013

How to avoid over estimating remaining Li capacity, if yours in an electric car.

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic ... im_to_fame

Fortunately this effect is manageable, says Paul Braun, a materials scientist at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign who was not involved in the study. There is no long-term impact on the battery’s capacity, Sasaki’s team found, and fully charging the battery eliminates the anomalous voltage readings. Braun says understanding this phenomenon will allow car battery manufacturers to design better battery packs and sensors that accurately measure miles until empty.

worntorn · Apr 17, 2013

Update:
I tried a 4 cell Ballistic on my kickstart Vincent. This was supposed to be more than a match for the little 7ah lead acid it replaced. It is not. The 7ah lead acid handled the load without problem.
The four cell Li battery might have more power available for a quick surge, but I don't need that. I need a battery that can hang on and provide at least 11.0 volts (11.5 for most EI bikes) to keep the point/coil ignition going when I am stuck in city traffic at night.
The 4 cell Ballistic does not cut it for this, although the 8 cell might. The 4 cell doesn't even have enough oomph to keep the ignition going for a few minutes at idle without the lights on. So if you get stuck in a lineup in day time you need to rev the crap out of your already hot engine just to keep the battery up. Once it falls below about12.2 volts the next stop is 5.5 volts and a dead engine.
With the 4 cell, the battery dies very quickly with this kind of steady discharge. Big problem. It is going back and I will try the 8 cell.

The twelve cell I have in the project bike handled the same situation OK.

Glen

Lithium Ferrous Battery Review

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