It's a long way to 920 type(rary)

Discussion in 'Norton Commando Classic Motorcycles' started by yves norton seeley, Jan 14, 2018.

  1. jseng1

    jseng1

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Yves - I gave Web cam a sample cam with perfect timing and whenever they grind cams for me they use the intake lobe centerline for reference. They call this sample cam a "line up cam". Before I worked this out with them the cams were not always the same. So I'm glad it worked out for you and that you confirmed that the cam is correctly timed. There can also be cam timing errors from motor to motor because of various timing gears and keyway locations in the crank, keyway slots in the gears/sprockets etc - so its still best to check.

    Ken and Worntorn - your various cam timing methods are excellent but different ways of verifying cam timing. I also use the same methods as per Axtell's instructions ( as Ken) and notice that the intake is always advanced a couple/few degrees (as Worntorn). But when you measure the valve lift at TDC the intake lift is always higher than the exhause at TDC with symmetrical cams and its just easier to measure (and record) that lift than to do the degree calculations. The lift specs I provide at TDC are what you see when the cam is degreed correctly - the intake has X amount more lift than the exhaust. Some customers are not familiar with the degree calculations but they can usually check that there is more lift on the intake at TDC - even if you just peek through the ports. Generally if the timing is wrong it is too retarded. So if the intake has less lift than the exhaust - you have to do something about it. If you're going to be lazy then you can tolerate the in/ex lift being equal at TDC and still have a good running motor. But they run best a little advanced.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  2. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Hi there,
    A lot of work done to day:
    I finish the instalation from the Alton starter, connect all the oil tubes, Change the oil filter, put the distribution cover on the engine, I fill up with Driven brake in oil, put the head steady, try the e start w/o ignition, no problem to pass the compression at the moment, It can be different after brake in... then I take the plugs out and with the e start I turn the engine w/o the rockers covers till oil appear at the rockers shafts, look at the oil guage, everiting fine so far... I put the rockers cover on the engine, then I put the engine at TDC turn the crank to 28 degrees on the degree weel, take the degree weel off and put the outer transmission cover on the engine and look at the degree scale and find 29 degrees on the scale, so I know that I have to set the ignition at 29 degrees to have 28 in reality, tomorrow I will put the Trispark ignition on the engine, polish the outer transmission cover like every other alloy parts of the engine all ready done, put the exhaust and the carbs and push the magic button, it will be roarrrr or bang, wait and see... I will not ride the bike,Just warm up, it's raining here and salt on the roads. About the carbs: I use Keihin FCR 35 for years, I rise up the main jet from 140 to 148 to be save, but my theory is that you dont need to change a lot on the jetting even if you go to bigger 920 displacement: If the engine suck more air, automaticly he will suck more fuel also, so in fact no need to change the jetting, but OK, I put 8 points more on the main jet, I remember when I receive the FCR, the engine was runing good, but I spend hours to find the ideal jets, needels and so on to have the mixture spot on
    Tomorrow the first big day...
    Keep you posted with a smile or a tear
    Yves
     
  3. SteveA

    SteveA VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2011
    Yves, I have used two cams, the original PW3 went in on the original marks and ran fine.

    The Web cam I now have has asymmetricaly ground followers, it has been run at standard timing and retarded 5 degrees, which I prefer. There is also marginally more inlet valve to piston clearance with this setting. But no minor adjustments with the key.
     
  4. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Hi there,
    Big smile on my face to day, I start the engine for the first time, and no issues at all, no smoke, no oil leaks, no mecanical noises and when you toutch the trottle you feel that the horses are fighting to come out of the gearbox. The Alton e starter don't same to have problems with the compression and I think I find the reason: On my 820 I was using gapless rings from Jim Schmidt and it was hard work for the starter to pass the compression, but with the 920 I am using normal rings maibe thats why...
    I just warm-up the engine on the work bench, but this give me a good feeling for the future.
    I still have 1001 details to do on the bike to have evrything near perfect, but to day it's feel like someone take 200 pounds from my shoulder....
    Hope that the weather will be good in the next day for a first try on the road.
    The most difficult to me this evening is to take the stupid smile from my face...
    Thanks to all of you for the helpfull advises
    Keep you posted
    Yves
     
    Kvinnhering likes this.
  5. WZ507

    WZ507 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Nice to hear there is fire in the hole! I'm smiling with you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  6. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Nice to hear Yves!

    And you keep that ‘stupid smile’ on your face as long as you can!

    Interesting comments re being easy to turn over. Did you ever measure the compression ratio on the 850 and have you also done so on the 920?
     
  7. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Alrighty just don't over look over pensioning of cold primary drive and tools to reach and retorque crank or clutch nuts if not 'over' tightened before leaving. I like working up til 1st> 2nd shift catches rubber hesitating acceleration to learn to feather off a bit for just a chrip/screech sense. Waste of big engine expense logic if not also enjoying renewing rear tires too often.
     
  8. Jagbruno

    Jagbruno

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2014
    I can testify to the eagerness of Yves' engine thoroughbred horses as he called me to let me hear it over the phone!!
    Well done my friend, I can't wait for our first ride together with your incredible machine!
    :)
     
  9. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Must be around 9.5/1
     
  10. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Hi There,
    Brrrrr, it's freezing here in Belgium, sunny but cold, they idiots put a lot of salt on the roads, my street looks like the Bonneville Salt Flats, just to say that I will not do a road test this week...
    I work a few hours to day; I put the clutch discs and the stator, no more, my wife need me for shopping, you understand how mutch I like this!
    Tomorrow I wish to retorque the head and do some polishing work, but my polishing machine is not in my workshop and there is no heater on my polishing place and as you maybe know it's difficult to have good results with polishing below 18 celcius.
    So I wish to receive your advice about brake in, with all the bikes I own in my long life, I always did it on feeling but this time I will go to the hospital for a cast around my RH wirst to empeche me to go WOT
    I put some Driven break in oil in the bike and after I will use Redline oil, thanks Brooking 850 and Fast Eddy for the recomandations!
    About the break in: I am walking in the dark becouse I put Nicasil coating on the sleeves from the Maney 920 cylinder, do someone did this before??
    Nicasil is very hard and the JS pistons are coated so the brake in period can be very long....
    Keep you posted
    Yves
     
  11. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    IF new cam/lobes surfaces then that matters most on initial run which requires over 2000 rpm for some long unloaded running minutes. If new rings/bores, dry rings install should seat essentially smokeless in under a minute. Ring seating mainly requires avoiding over heating them right off for few short intervals at cam break in rpm to avoid metal melting galling w/o cooling air flow ridding to finish off under loads. iF lubed rings then who knows how long to seat with tougher surfaces and entirely possible may never until re-opened to start again.WD/40 is not a lube but a solvent water displacer that flashes off on 1st ignition so ok to use to help pilot nerves on 1st start.
     
  12. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    It's always difficult to me to understand your englih dear Hobot, I can tell you that I put Redline assemly lube on all the moving parts in the engine
     
  13. Kvinnhering

    Kvinnhering VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    I will go to the hospital for a cast around my RH wirst to empeche me to go WOT

    :):)
     
  14. oldbeezer

    oldbeezer VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    yves, it is difficult for me and I think we speak the same language
     
  15. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Aw ya will figure it out w/o hobot. If whole new engine, that will stay running, immediately blip over cam break in rpm 2000+ for 35-45 sec or till smoke distinctly clearing up then shut down to let rings cool to avoid galling heat. Oil pressure to head takes over 30 sec to show up and not much sling out of crank either, so nil oil to drain/splash on cam till later. Diddle check celebrate and have a longer go with only long life of cam break in on your mind. I've done enough rings on various engines now to know rings should seat almost smokeless in under a minute, if not then may continue to annoy. Check inside oil filter, change to road oil before riding off briskly to finish up the fun way. Assembly lube is another subject but most anything works long enough for oil to replace it.
     
  16. oldbeezer

    oldbeezer VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    I enjoy reading hobot's comments, it's fun figuring out what he is telling us.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  17. Brooking 850

    Brooking 850 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Yves, that break in oil by Driven is good for 6-8 dyno pulls for testing and/or run in OR several rounds of practice plus one race if with a performance motor.(Dyno pulls means running your bike on a dyno)
    I have just spent a weekend at the first round of racing for the start of our season (I didnt race due to no medical clearance from a crash in December) and friends with different race bikes that have had replacement rings and bearings in the off season, one guy was having trouble with his bike smoking,although not badly.
    It turned out he didnt use break in oil and went straight for the good oil, therefore no chance to bed in the motor.
    All the engine builder experts suggested to him to go back to a break in oil or mineral oil to see if it will bed in, then go back to the good oil. If that doesnt work , he maybe up for a bore hone and another set of rings

    I take my race bike to remote hilly area of country sealed roads,(this is illegal here but fun) with the break in oil in the motor, I run up and down hill without exceeding 3800 rpm , using the gearbox fully but not letting the motor labour.
    After about 35 km I then start to take the bike up to 5000 rpm but no more and end up doing a total of 60 km.
    I then do all the after checks, retorque head on a cold motor, change oil and filter, then go racing .
    In three ring and bearing changes over 5 years of racing , never a problem with smoking or loss of compression using this method.
    Hope you get better weather to get your motor run in
    Regards Mike
     
  18. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    Thanks Mike,
    I will not go to the Dino before full break in and I will do a little more of 60 km, I will not use my Seeley for racing, road use only.
    Do you change your breakin oil for racing oil after 60km?
    BTW: Is Ginger Molloy still there, I remember him with his Kawa 500 H1R when he finish second at the World Championship, great man!
    Yves
     
  19. yves norton seeley

    yves norton seeley

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2014
    I dont have enough imagination and fantasy to figuring out what he is telling us
    Yves
     
  20. Brooking 850

    Brooking 850 VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Yves, yes I change the break in oil after the 60 kms, then use the Driven HD50
    Yes Ginger Malloy still about, he turns up to a lot of race meetings
     

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