Is this metalflake paintscheme original Norton?

Rohan said:

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Did you buy it new though - anything could have happened to it in the past 40 years ?

Having said that, as someone has pointed out, the frames were built elsewhere (by Reynolds or Verlicchi) and then shipped to Nortons for assembly into complete bikes. One could have sat in the corner somewhere, who knows....

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Nope, not the first. I'm the third owner. I know it was off the road for a bit before the second owner bought it, and my best guess is that they looked at the headstock and used that number for the year when it was reregistered (instead of 1970). It was also registered as an "S", and everyone assumes it is an "S" because is shares all of the same components (except the pipes) with the "S" models that the later roadsters don't have. The big thing is that you can't go by the headstock numbers (save looking up the ID number), or a current title/registration to determine what model or year these bikes were produced.

RSR

Quick Metalflake 'education' time!

The flakes are aluminium (definitely not 'Aluminum' :wink: ) sheet milled down to a size, e.g. 1/64" and dyed with the colour. Norton Flakes are very fine, incidentally.
The flakes are then either (a) mixed with clear lacquer and sprayed onto the surface until colour saturation is achieved (Norton used a basecoat of a similar colour to economise here), then overcoated with clear lacquer until a level surface is achieved, or (b) mixed with gelcoat and applied to the inside of the mould after a clear layer, prior to the 'glass layup.

The silvering effect is when the clearcoat is worn through together with the dye and the underlying aluminium is revealed - which is why it's imperative to get a good build-up of clearcoat before finish sanding... ask me how I know :roll:

So the silver is the natural flake colour, and it's possible that the black flecks could be where some corrosion has occurred?

The other finish which causes some confusion here is the candy apple effect - which is a translucent colour laid over a silver base. No reason why this can't be applied over a silver flake, and likely how the 2-tone fastback was done. I haven't seen one in the flesh yet, so can only speculate.
To summarise, a single colour metalflake finish is down to the colour of the flakes themselves.

I can confirm that candy paintwork is a total bitch if it goes even slightly wrong - it's very easy to create dark patches, and the only remedy is to do the whole f&%@ing thing again!

I have repaired Jap bike paintwork which had evidently left the factory after 4 attempts - it was like sanding through tree-rings!

Its been a number of years, but Ian Kennedy (Cycle Depot, not sure if they are still around) down in Atlanta had some of the original Norton Paint swatches he showed me. What he had, showed a 3 step: silver base/flake/candy process. So in the case of the fireflake red, it was a silver base, silver flake, and candy red on top. Flake on the earlier bikes is also much larger than the later ones that also had some flake in the paint.

Now, I've seen a number of original bikes where the color in the paint seems to fade. Would one done in the above system do the same, or is it more likely the died flaked that would fade out?

FWIW, my bike had a poor yellow respray over the original fire flake red (from the 2nd owner). When I took it down to repaint there was still some fire flake red underneath. The flake on mine was silver, but I don't know the condition of the tank prior to paint, just that the second owner didn't like the metalflake, and hit the bike with a can of Krylon Yellow.

While the above description of metalflake paint is the modern version, we are not so sure that Nortons, in the early 1970s would have had either dyed flakes OR clear top coats. Both of those are more modern than early 1970s paint types ? - cars didn't get clear topcoats until somewhere in the 1980s ?? And Nortons back then don't appear to have the ultra-shiny paint finishs that clear topcoats give ?? Or in the brochures either.

In the late 1970s, I was going to do a rebuilt Commando in fireflake blue. My paint shop sold me a 2 coat system - the blue basecoat, and a blue transparent topcoat with large-ish silver aluminium flakes in it (stir WELL before use). Since didn't have a sample to match, this was pure guesswork - and the finished result was too light a blue (basecoat was too light a blue in color) so didn't use it, and went with black instead. Still have this paint, still good..

Nortons back then didn't get rave reviews of their paintwork quality - in fact, I've seen it written that the paint was described as thin and sometimes poorly finished. Still have a black-n-gold roadster sidecover, as a pattern for the above bike, and this certainly could be said for the paint on it, it is thin, and has micro-bubbled in places. Scratches easily too.

Anyone know where Nortons paintwork was done ?
In house, or from outside somewhere ??

Anyone got an original fireflake paint Commando with clear topcoat paint finish. ???
Stress original....

I'm pretty sure the black flecks in my FF blue is original.

There are a few fellows on the forum that still have their original FF tanks, one is 69750S, Bruce in Jurez, Red I think.

Yes when I sanded off the paint on my tank, the blue showed up, but it didn't take much to go through the clear and all of a sudden it was silvery blue, and not very even at that. I remember the original paint was not that consistent looking, but probably could have been polished up if I had known what to do, but it wouldn't have fixed the inconsistent blue undercoat.

Other issue is the old fiberglass splits with age.

I bet Norton farmed out the paint.

Dave
69S

DogT said:

I'm pretty sure the black flecks in my FF blue is original.
69S

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We need to see other samples the same to see that this is how Nortons did it.

Norvil had what they said was an original ff blue fastback tank for sale recently.
They didn't show the finish up close enough to see the individual flakes....

They did say, when asked, that the flakes were in the gelcoat.
But this would be tough to tell if it was gelcoat or paint ??

gosh.. this is a great thread.. thanks to All for such interesting contributions..
and it seems there's even more to come..

on another note, if the silver metalflake I posted at the very beginning is original for a commando roadster year 1970ish, I am wondering what decals were used?

if silver metalflake was just a 1970 colour, then I bet the decals had to have the border (in gold color? pairing the silver FF?) .. in this case the image at the beginning of the thread is about a paint which is not completely original (at least for the decal), as it has a black decal without border..

.. if silver metalflake was adopted also later, then the black decal of the tank in the picture is right and completely original..

what do you think?

There is a pic (b&w) in Roy Bacons "Norton Twin Restoration" book, page 156, of a 1970 Roadster that shows a metal paint bike with what appears to be just a black decal.

What does the 1970 brochure show. ?
And the parts list(s), which list quite a variety of decals ?
Someone has put scans of them online, somewhere...

The other 69 brochure I have lists 'Grenadier Red, Quicksilver, and British Racing Green'.

The 1970 brochure says wide range of colors available, consult your dealer.
http://classicbike.biz/Norton/Brochures ... Norton.pdf
Back to looking for those elusive yearly colors-available pages.
Red green blue yellow shown, not for each model though.... ?

Decals clearly look to be edged in gold.

I remember the gold outline on my 69/70 was pretty large. Steadfast has decals or rather stick on's that reproduce the size. The rub on decals from AN (that I got from OB) ended up gathering a lot of dirt and the outline was rather tiny. I've been thinking about painting or having someone paint on the outline. It's up to you.

Dave
69S

Here's my current collection of FF Blue stuff - all sanded down to the original base colour. - some of the sidepanels have already been primered and sanded back ready for the new basecoat



This is the Fastback tank where the seat has rubbed through the paint. If these had been painted with silver flake and overlaid with clear blue there would be a hard transition, and it just isn't there - these are blue flakes as already stated.



Here's a NEW Old Stock 'S' sidepanel complete with correct waterslide decal (estimated service live 18 months? :roll: ) next to my MkIIA recent effort

The finish looks painted to me, being very slightly orange-peely. That's not to say that's how they were all done - the fastback tank looks more like it was in the gelcoat



Finally, these tank logos were done with masks, and I copied the original border widths the best I could in each instance.
The Customer for the blue 'S' paintwork is insisting on originality, so he'll be applying the decals himself - I'm just putting the colour on for him.
I prefer to lacquer over the logos (and pinstripes for that matter), and am less concerned with originality for my bikes :wink:






FInally, and due to the wonders of computer technology, I'm able to visualise the Fastback paintwork before I commit to getting all flaky



My best guess would be that the silver paintjob would have had the same decals as the contemporary 'S' type, i.e. black and gold for the earlier model.
The best thing about Commandos is you're not compelled to be 100% 'correct', as the brochures don't necessarily reflect what was in the showroom, and it would be nigh on impossible for somone to prove what you go for is 'incorrect' or not 100% 'original'.
The Number One Priority is that you like looking at it!

Hi Rohan,
I checked the picture on Roy Bacon's book you mention and the vynil appears to me the style with borders..
I also followed your suggestion to check the parts book, but unfortunately I have only the 1973 one and it mentions just the silver, the gold and the black type (without any border)

Rohan said:

There is a pic (b&w) in Roy Bacons "Norton Twin Restoration" book, page 156, of a 1970 Roadster that shows a metal paint bike with what appears to be just a black decal.

What does the 1970 brochure show. ?
And the parts list(s), which list quite a variety of decals ?
Someone has put scans of them online, somewhere...

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Rohan doubts that certain paint finishes were factory standard in the `70s viz clear top coats...
Well some machines boasted such fine finishes, factory fresh, - back in the day.
http://3cyl.com/mraxl/paint/triple_colo ... od04e.html

We didn't know that Kawasaki Heavy Industries manufactured Commandos ?!?!
Interesting though.

Their engine alloy cases had a clear/plastic coating on them too.
Which yellowed and peeled with age.....

Is that the 1972 definition of the Kwikasaki standard tank finish though, or 2009. ?
4 coats ??!!

I had a CB450 somewhere back in a past life, and although the tank had about 10 colors there in patches (may be a slight exaggeration), clearcoat didn't appear to be anywhere to be seen......

I've certainly never seen any evidence that Nortons ever used a clear topcoat over any of their paint finishes - in Norton Villiers or Norton Villiers Triumph days anyway. There was talk of marine varnish over the tank decal in earlier days, but that may have been owner done, not factory done ?

Sure would be interesting to talk to someone who worked in Nortons paint shop back then - or whomever the outside supplier was that did Nortons paint....

P.S. How is it that Kwaka owners have such a comprehensive paint/tank finish detail page, and Norton owners don't even know what colors were available in which years ??!!

P.S. what isn't clear in the Kwaka stuff is whether the clear coat went over the decal set - or the stripes were painted on and then clearcoated. ??

Nortons didn't clearcoat over the vinyl (?) stickon 'Norton' or '850 Commando' labels, I recall just peeling them off, with some difficulty....

PPS. The quik-n-dirty test to see if paint has been clearcoated is to polish it with some cut-n-polish wax. If the cloth comes up colored (in the same color as your tank, obviously) then it hasn't been clearcoated.

Or you have polished all the clearcoat off !
But this will usually show as variable patches of shiny and not-so-shiny.....

Rohan said:

P.S. what isn't clear in the Kwaka stuff is whether the clear coat went over the decal set - or the stripes were painted on and then clearcoated. ??

Nortons didn't clearcoat over the vinyl (?) stickon 'Norton' or '850 Commando' labels, I recall just peeling them off, with some difficulty....

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Looks like this was all painted on, and then clearcoated over ?
Look at that level of shine ! - NOS tank
Wonder if this is lacquer type paint, or something more substantial ?



We digress...

Rohan said:

Looks like this was all painted on, and then clearcoated over ?
Look at that level of shine ! - NOS tank
Wonder if this is lacquer type paint, or something more substantial ?

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Probably a combination of decals and paint, and certainly clearcoated - I had a couple of Z1s a while ago, and the owner of that 'S' sidepanel has one still with the original orange & brown paint.
It's an orange metallic base masked and sprayed with clear brown . I'd guess the logo on the triple tank may have been done the same way?
The clearcoat on my Z1s had dulled off with age, and it didn't respond well to being polished - the 'patina' was there to stay.
Modern 2-pack clearcoat doesn't degrade the same, and is also much easier to use, apart from the health risks :roll:

Clear cellulose has been around since before the First World War, and fibreglass gelcoat since just after the second.

B+Bogus said:

Clear cellulose has been around since before the First World War, and fibreglass gelcoat since just after the second.

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Is there any suggestion that Nortons were EVER finished with either of these ??
Certainly glass tanks and sidecovers may have been, Commando era,
although you'd expect this was done in the gelcoat in the laying up.
But Nortons were always enamelled - until almost the Commando era ?

P.S. have an elderly bike that was varnished somewhere back in the past to preserve the finish. Has browned/yellowed a bit with age, but did keep the paint intact underneath. Just doesn't look shiny and new though, more like an old master where you can barely see whats underneath...