High Prices - Low Expectation.

Al-otment · Oct 21, 2013

Partly in reply to the 'New Norvil's' thread.

Looking on the NOC forum one message states, 'I think they are well built machines (re new norvil Commandos).....9,000 miles on the clock and is very slowly becoming high maintenance e.g. head gasket leak and worn carbs'.

In my book a new, well built machine does not require a head gasket replacement at such a low mileage. Fair comment re carbs, but the new Premier Amals are reported to be sorted, so longer lasting one would hope.

What I find incredulous is that these bikes sell for circa £10,000 - used! You can get a proper Commando for three quarters that.

If advantage is taken of CNC machining, improved casting methods and metallurgy etc, I would not expect a top half engine strip until absolute minimum of 50,000 miles, despite the Norton twin being an old design. Obviously many people find this high maintenance perfectly acceptable. What stands out, in my opinion, is that any newly built machine requiring such high maintenance is of poor quality. Unscrupulous dealers realise the low expectation (reliability, maintenance) of some customers and new parts, best described as scrap, are handed over in exchange for money which could buy top quality parts manufactured using current technology from a reputable source. It can be an expensive business finding this out. Still, you live and learn - hopefully.

B+Bogus · Oct 21, 2013

Amen.

Regardless of what's been said before about the 'new' Norvil Commandos, at best they're a parts-bin put-together, and I can't see in what way they'd ever be superior to an original bike, rebuilt or otherwise.
What could possibly set them apart (to the positive, that is)?

olChris · Oct 21, 2013

IMO, You blokes are forgetting stuff or have lost touch............ Time moves on and 25-35yr old want it now (for a while) and its only $$$$.. They dont care about "matching #'s or provinance or what eva you call it.. If it faulters then it goes to the local mechanic, gets fixed and paid for. Remember, IT A TOY!! They look fantastic and if i was working offshore/mining getting the Us$150000+ per year .. why not?? .. Give it the flick next month and spend $kkk's on the next toy.,..

Al-otment · Oct 21, 2013

People earning $150,000/annum are in the minority as far as I'm aware - unless I'm out of touch. Nobody likes being taken for a mug or likes paying good money for crap service.

Expectations of modern motorcyclists is way higher than your average classic owner. Commando's can be reliable and perfectly useable on todays roads. When I ride with people on modern machinery they are always impressed by the Commando's performance. Hopefully the ones I pass on the bends are too! Unfortunately classic bikes are rarely seen, so the typical opinion is that they're not practical. So many will only consider a classic as a second bike for short distances on sunny days at low speed, if at all.

Dealers who make bikes unreliable through turning out poor quality parts and services are only reinforcing these opinions. End result is classics get used less and less until they become obsolete. Not good.

Best news for years, regarding the longevity and interest in classics, is the high profile given to the newly branded Classic TT at this years Manx GP. The bigger crowds seeing the bikes revved to the limit and cornering at full tilt can only be good for classic bikes, as is the young riders and TT riders joining classic racing. Just hope the bad dealers get their deserved rewards. :evil:

BitchinBeezer · Oct 21, 2013

It was "bad dealers" that were the largest factor in the decline of the American market for Brit bikes in the ‘60s & early ‘70s. After a few years of teaching myself how to diagnose & repair the electrics I was the go to guy in the Allegheny Valley on electrical warranty work that was botched by local "dealers".

The average American Triumph/BSA dealers had no clue how the simple charging system worked. Often, just unplugging the zeener diode would start the system charging. I would collect a $10 bill & caution the owner to keep the lights on & the revs down until a new diode could be installed.

B+Bogus · Oct 21, 2013

olChris said:
IMO, You blokes are forgetting stuff or have lost touch............ Time moves on and 25-35yr old want it now (for a while) and its only $$$$.. They dont care about "matching #'s or provinance or what eva you call it.. If it faulters then it goes to the local mechanic, gets fixed and paid for. Remember, IT A TOY!! They look fantastic and if i was working offshore/mining getting the Us$150000+ per year .. why not?? .. Give it the flick next month and spend $kkk's on the next toy.,..

Funnily enough I have a road test of a couple of Commandos from around 4 years back and both bikes were kept at Norvil while their owners were away (presumably working!) abroad. They weren't 'new' or rebuilt, but actually quite tired bikes judging by the dyno runs.

I watched the TV coverage of the Manx this year and my wife and I both agreed it should be on the 'to-do' list for next year - quite a show.
I noticed Fred Walmsley and Andy Molnar both had bikes/teams out there, and an old friend of mine subsequently raced the winning Rocket 3 at Aintree a couple of weeks back - all this and within an hour's ride. The Manx is clearly on the 'up', and I couldn't help thinking that if a reliable short-stroke could be put together with a strong gearbox I don't see a reason why a Commando couldn't be famous all over again.

Al-otment · Oct 21, 2013

Yeah, dead on Andy. There were three (I think) Commando entries for the post classic, but didn't race. Pretty sure I saw them going through Glen Helen on thursday evening practice. Only the top 90 qualified with about 120 entrants in the combined classes. Don't know if the guys racing (at least two where from the USA) where new to the Island or the bikes not quick enough. Anyhow, I hope they're back next year. If you can get to the Manx go. Only place in the world to be at that time of year.

I remember reading the same road test in Classic Bike and found it very amusing that norvil were maintaining the bikes yet, as you say, were well down on power.

chasbmw · Oct 22, 2013

Al-otment said:
Partly in reply to the 'New Norvil's' thread.

Looking on the NOC forum one message states, 'I think they are well built machines (re new norvil Commandos).....9,000 miles on the clock and is very slowly becoming high maintenance e.g. head gasket leak and worn carbs'.

In my book a new, well built machine does not require a head gasket replacement at such a low mileage. Fair comment re carbs, but the new Premier Amals are reported to be sorted, so longer lasting one would hope.

What I find incredulous is that these bikes sell for circa £10,000 - used! You can get a proper Commando for three quarters that.

If advantage is taken of CNC machining, improved casting methods and metallurgy etc, I would not expect a top half engine strip until absolute minimum of 50,000 miles, despite the Norton twin being an old design. Obviously many people find this high maintenance perfectly acceptable. What stands out, in my opinion, is that any newly built machine requiring such high maintenance is of poor quality. Unscrupulous dealers realise the low expectation (reliability, maintenance) of some customers and new parts, best described as scrap, are handed over in exchange for money which could buy top quality parts manufactured using current technology from a reputable source. It can be an expensive business finding this out. Still, you live and learn - hopefully.

The Norvil bike
Quoted was built in the early 2000s and very obviously predates Amal premiers
Which have themselves only been around such a short time that none knows how long they will last. The molnar manxes are also a long way away from a 50s Manx and their prices are also very high.
It's interesting that Novils are now much more expensive than 961s

Al-otment · Oct 22, 2013

chasbmw said:
The Norvil bike
Quoted was built in the early 2000s and very obviously predates Amal premiers
Which have themselves only been around such a short time that none knows how long they will last. The molnar manxes are also a long way away from a 50s Manx and their prices are also very high.
It's interesting that Novils are now much more expensive than 961s

Re the Amals, that's why I said 'fair enough', refering to worn out at 9,000 miles, but they are now making good quality concentrics by all accounts.

Comparing norvils products to Molnar Manxs is ridiculous. Molnar race bikes are competitive and race proven. Riders like Guy Martin don't ride rubbish. I would be very surprised if the same high standard didn't go into the road versions.

Lack of response from norvil owners to your request suggests the bikes don't get used much, if at all. One owner has had problems after 9,000 miles. Anothers bike has been in the garage from new for 4 years, as I think the owner was less than impressed with the quality. Apparently the bike, 'once set up properly should work well', suggests norvil didn't do the job properly in the first place. I mean, what do you expect for £15,500?

It is curious the high price people are paying for norvils and 961's. Apparently the word 'Gullible' has been removed from the dictionary.

ZFD · Oct 23, 2013

The question is if these high prices are being asked, or being paid..... What one tends to see is only the asking prices.

Al-otment · Oct 23, 2013

The prices are definitely being asked. I doubt very much if you will be able to haggle over the price of a new 961 or norvil from messrs Garner and LEmery respectively. It is reported a used LEmeny norvil went for £10,000 on ebay. Bought unseen without a test ride possibly?

High Prices - Low Expectation.

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