Finding whitworth tools.

Hi guys, this is my first post here so bear with me. I just bought a p-11a ranger and need to completely put it back together, any ideas what measurement tools I would need and where I could buy some? Also, would it be a better idea to machine some? (My dad has the stuff to do it). I'm only 16 and this is my first Brit.

Welcome to the forum, monkeysonparade.

monkeysonparade said:

I just bought a p-11a ranger and need to completely put it back together, any ideas what measurement tools I would need and where I could buy some? Also, would it be a better idea to machine some? (My dad has the stuff to do it). I'm only 16 and this is my first Brit.

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In my opinion, your best starting point is to get a micrometer and/or a good steel rule, (dad probably has those?) preferably a set (or sets) of thread pitch gauges (he may also have those, but maybe not 55 degree Whitworth/BSF thread?).
With those items, you should be able to identify just about any fastener from the various thread charts and parts lists from its diameter, pitch and hexagon size.
Then you will be able to decide exactly which tools you need to either buy, or make.

After more than 40 years, anything-especially fasteners could have been replaced, so never assume a particular fastener you remove is the original thread specification, always check.

Here are some (hopefully) useful links to get you started.

'Whitworth' background info., and useful spanner/wrench jaw size size chart.
http://www.sat.dundee.ac.uk/~psc/spanner_jaw.html

Part number - fastener reference
http://stainlessbits.com/link12a.html

Thread charts
http://www.britishfasteners.com/threads/index.html

Tools
http://www.britishfasteners.com/index.php

Welcome to the forum. With a P11 yo illl probably need some a/f spanners as well as there is a mixture on these machines due to them being a hybrid. There are plenty of members to help you out, just ask..
I have 2 P11 Rangers that I am restoring at the moment and it is worth looking at the phographs of other members bikes. Where abouts are you in this big wide world?

Thank you guys for the help! I will check with him and see if he has them. i was about to just start buying whitworth wrenches off ebay and see if they worked, but you saved me from that . Any recommendations on what brands? id like to have the quality tools to do this again if i found one. Oh, and i live in Ohio, guess i should have put that in my info lol. what exactly is an a/f spanner? sorry to bother everybody.

You might want to do a search for "Britool". That was our equivalent of Snap-on when I worked at N-V but they might not be in business any longer. As others have said, there were all sorts of mixtures of fastener standards. One you haven't mentioned is the "Cycle Thread". This is used on things like wheel spindles and was a thread that used 26 threads per inch for many different diameters. I don't remember there being any standard for nuts in this system - they probably had an "a/f" size.

To clarify - "A/F" stands for "Across the Flats", which matches the wrench to the actual size of the nut. American SAE wrenches are essentially the same. In the Whitworth system, the wrench size refers to the bolt diameter, not the measurement of the nut. The old equation for the hexagon size was (1.125 x the bolt diameter + 0'.25). This made for quite large nuts with a fairly small hole. As fastener material strengths improved, it was later changed to 1.25 x bolt diameter + 0".125.

I'm going from memory here, as my copy of Machinery's Handbook is a bit vague, so I may have mixed the numbers up. The bottom line is that a "1/4-inch Whitworth" wrench is a lot bigger than the "1/4" would suggest.

frankdamp said:

You might want to do a search for "Britool". That was our equivalent of Snap-on when I worked at N-V but they might not be in business any longer.

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Britool is still going strong-but it's now part of the Stanley-Black & Decker Group. http://www.britool-expert.co.uk/

Another name you might remember is: King Dick. http://www.kingdicktools.co.uk/

frankdamp said:

As others have said, there were all sorts of mixtures of fastener standards. One you haven't mentioned is the "Cycle Thread". This is used on things like wheel spindles and was a thread that used 26 threads per inch for many different diameters. I don't remember there being any standard for nuts in this system - they probably had an "a/f" size.
I'm going from memory here, as my copy of Machinery's Handbook is a bit vague, so I may have mixed the numbers up. The bottom line is that a "1/4-inch Whitworth" wrench is a lot bigger than the "1/4" would suggest.

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Hopefully, it's all explained in the "spanner jaw size" and "British Fasteners threads" links I posted.

On my P!! and Combats, for complete soup to nuts needs, I needed SAE, Metric, Withworth and Metwrench universal sockets to fit all the meaner fasteners encountered. Most handy wrench not in any kit is the bent 1/4-3/8"w wrench sold by bigger famous vendors. Top of the line tools for British craft is King Dick brand named after a winning bulldog. Need 1.5" end wrench or extended socket to deal the the tanny sprocket. Also 3/4" drive sockets to deal with forks stem and caps bolts. A torch should be applied to anything that don't break loose on first reasonable efforts. Some sockets may have to be ground thinner to fit around in the tights encountered.

I had no idea that whitworth has such a history. So, just to see if I understand a 1/4" bsw wrench would "not" fit a 1/4" nut? Rather I have to use the formula to find what wrench I need to use? Thank you all so much, I appreciate your help. And those metrinch's sound like great things to have :!:

The size stamped on the wrench, i.e 3/8 Whit, will fit the nut on a 3/8 diameter bolt. The chances are it won't fit any SAE nuts or Metric ones! You don't need to use the formula - just remember that the nuts will be a good bit bigger than the dimension stamped on the wrench.

You'll soon get used to it. I think that SAE nuts have a symbol stamped in one of the flats (a set of "zero"s tied together, IIRC).

monkeysonparade said:

I had no idea that whitworth has such a history. So, just to see if I understand a 1/4" bsw wrench would "not" fit a 1/4" nut? Rather I have to use the formula to find what wrench I need to use?

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Sounds as if you are overthinking it? There's no need to use any formula.

A 1/4 Whitworth wrench does fit a 1/4 Whitworth fastener as all fasteners are generally referred to by their thread diameter, not the size of the hexagon therefore you use a wrench marked 1/4W on a 1/4W fastener unlike SAE or metric where wrenches are marked with the 'across flats' dimension of the hexagon.

Sizes are all in the spanner jaw size link.

http://www.sat.dundee.ac.uk/~psc/spanne ... Size_Table

Oooh, that is a lot less complicated than what i was making it.Now that table makes sense. Wow those King Dick's are pricey. My dad will probably just end up machining them as we need them

say What Monkey? Machine the bolt flats to fit your wrenches like Micheil Tagalieri in NY did or the other way around : )

There are a very few nuts that only Whitwhorth fits well where it matters, front rocker cover nuts come to mind and some the barrel and head fasteners but mostly SAE and Metric fits as well or better. 9/16" is needed a lot around engine, while 1/2" alot of other places. Face it Commando's are the most pricey bargain going and they need lots of tool attendance so biting the good tool bullet is part of ownership if lasting economy is a factor. The alternator stator nuts seem best fit with a Whitwhort socket I've found.

Some smoothed over stuck nuts w/o corners to grab came off normal + heat with my flat grabbing Metrinch. Down side is can't replace lost items one by one as with other brands to keep good track of em.