Drilling out 961 OEM muffler baffles

Eljahara

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As a business model, pissing off your distributors, your customers and your workforce does not bode well!
Nigel - you have an order in for a SL, along with quite a few others, at what point do you decide not to wait any longer and cancel? (rhetorical question...)
Dealers cannot continue to perform warranty work or remedial work without being paid by Norton - they also have businesses to run and profits to generate.
£33 000 is not enough to move the business forward, it is the cost of a single V4 or a couple of commandos
We all want the company to be successful but you have to wonder if at the moment, whether the reach exceeds the grasp
 
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Yes I also want to see this iconic brand and outwardly successful British Company flourish and prosper but imagine on the other hand if they went tits up.
Does the secret of this closely guarded access to the ECU die with them?
We'd all be stuffed.
It's immoral monopolistic insidious design.
There is no reason why this should be restricted (particularly on bikes outside of their guarantee period where the factory are no longer responsible) but for the worst reasons of greed and control.
 

Stephen_Spencer

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Hi Ferreteer,

Not sure which site member you are referring to however, I am quite sure that no one on this site would intentionally mislead you. I have only ever received accurate helpful information, making ownership of this (slightly) flawed machine bearable.

Ownership can be challenging, to say the least! You have to be resilient and dogged to chase down problems. It is worth it in the end however it helps greatly if you have a second bike.

Best of luck.

Steve
 

iwilson

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Yes I also want to see this iconic brand and outwardly successful British Company flourish and prosper but imagine on the other hand if they went tits up.
Does the secret of this closely guarded access to the ECU die with them?
We'd all be stuffed.
It's immoral monopolistic insidious design.
There is no reason why this should be restricted (particularly on bikes outside of their guarantee period where the factory are no longer responsible) but for the worst reasons of greed and control.
I think you’ll find practically every manufacturer locks their ECU. For good reason, they”re far to complex for most end users. Often the ECU is not capable of being modified other than by flashing it with a map developed on a programmable variant. There are however a number of aftermarket programmable ECU’s out there if you want to have a play (I have one on my Dominator).
 

BritTwit

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Yes I also want to see this iconic brand and outwardly successful British Company flourish and prosper but imagine on the other hand if they went tits up.
Does the secret of this closely guarded access to the ECU die with them?
We'd all be stuffed.
It's immoral monopolistic insidious design.
There is no reason why this should be restricted (particularly on bikes outside of their guarantee period where the factory are no longer responsible) but for the worst reasons of greed and control.
The SCS Delta ECU on most MK1 961's can be unlocked by the supplier. Cost is $300+ plus shipping.
Not sure about the OMEX ECU's on later model 961's

The various environmental agencies want the ECU's locked to prevent owners from screwing with the fueling.
This forces the owners to resort to dealers for repairs.
Dealers can be disciplined if they install components or tune vehicles that take the vehicle out of spec.
This created a huge market for the Power Commander.
 
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The SCS Delta ECU on most MK1 961's can be unlocked by the supplier. Cost is $300+ plus shipping.
Not sure about the OMEX ECU's on later model 961's

The various environmental agencies want the ECU's locked to prevent owners from screwing with the fueling.
This forces the owners to resort to dealers for repairs.
Dealers can be disciplined if they install components or tune vehicles that take the vehicle out of spec.
This created a huge market for the Power Commander.
Harley was fined 15 million dollars for selling "super tuners" ie, Screamin' Eagle. Trump administration threw them a bone and waived the fees. 10 states are now refusing to allow the fees to be rolled back. Could you imagine Norton getting hit with such a fine for defying Euro specs? It would just be nice if there were a good map developed. One tank getting 38 mpg, 47 the next, 800 rpm and the occasional stall, 1800 when hot. The bitch is possessed.
 

iwilson

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Having spoken with some of those responsible for developing some of the maps they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. When you're trying to map around mechanical limitations both from an emissions and performance point of view, don't be surprised if it's impossible to produce a map that passes muster! A larger manufacturer would have ironed out some of these mechanical problems, making it possible to produce a map that satisfies both emissions and performance targets.
 

BritTwit

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When you're trying to map around mechanical limitations both from an emissions and performance point of view, don't be surprised if it's impossible to produce a map that passes muster!
For manufacturers this is a problem. To reach the right stoichiometric fuel/air level for low emissions, but not so lean as to adversely effect throttle response or good power production. Emission reduction is their priority so that their machines pass regulatory controls, and can be sold to the public.

If you want a tune for power without regard to emissions, you need either a PC or unlocked ECU, and a good, experienced dyno tuner.
 
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Curious. Question for the ECU bike experienced. Would the same mapping work the same for different catless pipes and open or semi open pipes or does the effect vary with the resistance of different air flow?
 

BritTwit

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It all depends on the changes made and how much flexibility the EFI system has to "re-adapt". But generally speaking any significant changes to the intake or exhaust restrictions will require a remap to return the AFM for proper performance level. Just as a re-jetting may be required on a carburetor-ed engine.
 

iwilson

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For manufacturers this is a problem. To reach the right stoichiometric fuel/air level for low emissions, but not so lean as to adversely effect throttle response or good power production. Emission reduction is their priority so that their machines pass regulatory controls, and can be sold to the public.

If you want a tune for power without regard to emissions, you need either a PC or unlocked ECU, and a good, experienced dyno tuner.
Yes, but if you design the engine from the get go to meet these requirements you can have your cake and eat it! If you look around you see manufacturers continue to get more power with fewer emissions each new generation of engine.

Norton tapped into a ready market by bringing ‘back’ the Commando. But gave themselves a big headache using a air cooled engine (Triumph rather cleverly just faked it). That together with a design that imho needed more development (idle issues and oil in the air box to name two obvious examples). These are mechanical problems and a Power commander or programmable ECU may help (since you no longer need to worry about emissions), but won’t fix. The fixes from others like Tony, Richard and myself have generally been mechanical in nature, leading to a much better result when combined with tweaking the ECU.
 

BritTwit

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Yes, but if you design the engine from the get go to meet these requirements you can have your cake and eat it! If you look around you see manufacturers continue to get more power with fewer emissions each new generation of engine.

Norton tapped into a ready market by bringing ‘back’ the Commando. But gave themselves a big headache using a air cooled engine (Triumph rather cleverly just faked it). That together with a design that imho needed more development (idle issues and oil in the air box to name two obvious examples). These are mechanical problems and a Power commander or programmable ECU may help (since you no longer need to worry about emissions), but won’t fix. The fixes from others like Tony, Richard and myself have generally been mechanical in nature, leading to a much better result when combined with tweaking the ECU.
I agree with your basic premise.
The Commando should have been liquid cooled, like the new Triumph twins, then performance would have been improved.

But this would have made bringing 'back' the Commando much more expensive.
SG would have had to commissioned Ricardo or someone else to design and build a new engine.
Garner saw a way to short circuit this process by purchasing Kenny Dreer's existing air cooled prototypes, and revising them to required standards.
It's likely Garner would never have embarked on his Norton journey if the cost of bringing back the Commando required a significantly larger investment.
 

iwilson

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I agree with your basic premise.
The Commando should have been liquid cooled, like the new Triumph twins, then performance would have been improved.

But this would have made bringing 'back' the Commando much more expensive.
SG would have had to commissioned Ricardo or someone else to design and build a new engine.
Garner saw a way to short circuit this process
It’s just a lot easier if you start with a water cooled engine to be confident that investment will give you a return for a significant number of years. But not all is lost!

What if I told you there was a 270 degree twin cylinder air cooled engine out there right now that meets all current regs? The reviews seem to lavish praise on the engine characteristics.



https://www.cycleworld.com/2019-royal-enfield-continental-gt-650-first-ride/

This is what the Norton could of/should have been! Minimal vibration, easy start hot or cold. 47hp 650cc, scales up to 70hp at 961cc - whose to say there’s not a little more to be had.

But back to reality! Can a sow’s ear be made into a silk purse? Throw enough time, money and effort at it then yes. But you’d have started with a very expensive bike, thrown a load more at it to end up with an Enfield!

But in saying all that mine is still a keeper!
 
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Hi Ferreteer,

Not sure which site member you are referring to however, I am quite sure that no one on this site would intentionally mislead you. I have only ever received accurate helpful information, making ownership of this (slightly) flawed machine bearable.

Ownership can be challenging, to say the least! You have to be resilient and dogged to chase down problems. It is worth it in the end however it helps greatly if you have a second bike.

Best of luck.

Steve
Hi Steve just to clarify I never thought there was any intention to deceive, I'm sure everyone is here to learn and to genuinely help each other as am I.
ATB Brian
 
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I had no luck drilling my pipes. Bought the Thiel Motorsports shorties. Great product.
I wasn't aware of them and I just looked them up following your post and they do look fantastic, however, at their current price of e1299 a pair they are extortionately priced and underline the whole raison d'etre of this thread!

I do hope you are enjoying the Thiels you've fitted to your Norton and I have to ask, I have some magical beans that are priced at just $1000 for 5 beans including shipping. They are guaranteed if planted around your house at midnight in the nude (wearing only your crash helmet for modesty) to keep away all manner of ghouls goblins and even rampaging jabawokkies throughout the hours of darkness. If you'd like a set just PM me and I'll package a set up right away!!
 
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A little note for the silencer drillers amongst you. I found a pair of 961 silencers for £80 (lucky boy). So, I don't need to kill my original silencers.

I tried a hole saw to cut away the central baffle but it doesn't work. So, I bought a 28mm reduced shank drill and an 18" extension shaft. So far, I have drilled away the first 4" of central baffle and released a little more "loudness" (not enough to drown out the engine rattling/knocking but a little louder ). However, the tone just isn't right. Now, I have a 74 850 and the tone is just right on that.

So, my message here is removing the baffle might make for more noise but it may not be what you are looking for.

I also have a 961 silencer that started to fall apart internally. It was replaced under warranty (Thanks Matt). If anyone is interested I can take an angle grinder to it and see what is inside.
 
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My bike has a Zard 2:1 silencer. Weighs almost nothing. I believe it’s made of titanium. Ceramic coated. Very loud once you remove the decibel killer. But it doesn’t have that beautiful stock dual exhaust look. If Zard made the same exhaust in stock I’d buy it.
 
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A little note for the silencer drillers amongst you. I found a pair of 961 silencers for £80 (lucky boy). So, I don't need to kill my original silencers.

I tried a hole saw to cut away the central baffle but it doesn't work. So, I bought a 28mm reduced shank drill and an 18" extension shaft. So far, I have drilled away the first 4" of central baffle and released a little more "loudness" (not enough to drown out the engine rattling/knocking but a little louder ). However, the tone just isn't right. Now, I have a 74 850 and the tone is just right on that.

So, my message here is removing the baffle might make for more noise but it may not be what you are looking for.

I also have a 961 silencer that started to fall apart internally. It was replaced under warranty (Thanks Matt). If anyone is interested I can take an angle grinder to it and see what is inside.
That would be fantastic thank you!!!
 

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