Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Side

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
433
Country flag
Is this serviceable, repairable or is the shell no good? I do not intend to race this bike ('74 850), just ride it.

Of you look into the hole where the shaft comes out, and about 25% from the left side, you might be able to see the wavy crack in the case. Never mind the black thing at the bottom, I proped the shell up on the handle of the lawn mower to get the sun right to light up the photo.

Drat!  Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Side
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

I had a Mk3 give up the ghost on the LH side lay shaft bearing on my Commando racer. Typical bad quality bearing that many are familiar with. The housing was cracked through between the two bearing seats; the crack extended out through the outside of the shell. It was a good enough crack that post mortem in the pits showed it was leaking hypoid oil.

I had the shell cleaned, the crack welded inside and out and remachined to receive the main shaft and layshaft bearings with proper fit. I ran several seasons with the repair and no problems. The trick is to get a machinist willing and able to do it. I think there's enough metal shrinkage after welding of the crack alone that allows the machining back to size.


Other alternatives are the obvious: new box, new shell etc. Somewhere on accessnorton.com there's recent mention of a new box sold by Andover Norton or someone like that.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

rwalker28 said:
Is this serviceable, repairable or is the shell no good? I do not intend to race this bike ('74 850), just ride it.

Judging by the reports we've had from other members who found that same crack it's probably nothing to worry about as long as it doesn't extend right through to the outside of the case.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

L.A.B. said:
rwalker28 said:
Is this serviceable, repairable or is the shell no good? I do not intend to race this bike ('74 850), just ride it.

Judging by the reports we've had from other members who found that same crack it's probably nothing to worry about as long as it doesn't extend right through to the outside of the case.

Or leaks.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

L.A.B. said:
rwalker28 said:
Is this serviceable, repairable or is the shell no good? I do not intend to race this bike ('74 850), just ride it.

Judging by the reports we've had from other members who found that same crack it's probably nothing to worry about as long as it doesn't extend right through to the outside of the case.

Apparently various opinions are out there. Re-reading rwalker28's original post I see he intends to race it. I personnally have a problem with recommending anything other than repair as a failure here under race or street conditions is a life and limb matter. On the other hand, I cannot see through how this could end up in a catastrophic failure but I have missed the mark before.

Why is the crack there. Why did the crack start. Where is a crack going to propogate from best other than an existing crack. I can only speculate why there are so many reported cracks here, one of which might be inadequate design.

Maybe I am worrying too much about nothing on this matter. For racing, personnally I would bin the stock gear box and go after market TTIndustries for a variety of reasons including durability, reliability, getting a five speed with various ratios, lightness and smoothness of operations. Reliability can mean so much when committing time and monies to going to and participating in races.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

Dances with Shrapnel said:
L.A.B. said:
rwalker28 said:
Is this serviceable, repairable or is the shell no good? I do not intend to race this bike ('74 850), just ride it.

Judging by the reports we've had from other members who found that same crack it's probably nothing to worry about as long as it doesn't extend right through to the outside of the case.

Apparently various opinions are out there. Re-reading rwalker28's original post I see he intends to race it.

:?:

rwalker28 said:
I do not intend to race this bike ('74 850), just ride it


Dances with Shrapnel said:
Why is the crack there. Why did the crack start.

Because the metal between the two bearings at that point is literally wafer-thin.
warpedscout said:
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

Ha! My reading skills are at an all time low! :oops:

LAB, your points are all well taken. :)

If street use then who knows. With a bare shell in hand and knowing what I know about repairing it I would go ahead and weld, machine and reassemble, just the way I am about things. On the other hand I don't know what my repair looks like after a few seasons of racing other than the box performed flawlessly and did not leak.

My question "Why is the crack there" was more about cause rather than location but yes, paper thin, but why? Inadequate material quality, the fact that it is paper thin (design issue), some other phenomena occuring in the box (ex. my experience with a broken bearing). Seems like there would be a significant couple between the two bearings so not sure to dismiss the material between the bearings. Why don't all boxes exhibit this. My point is that this is off normal.

I guess I am too hung up on getting things as right as possible (at least in my own mind) so if it were me with bare shell in hand I would go ahead and repair. If others can make the arguement to leave that particular crack alone I would like to hear the basis of their arguement.

One way of looking at it is as though one were a service provider and that service provider finds the crack in the gear box shell. What do they tell the client and why. Did the factory intend for that crack to be there by design - I don't think so.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

They all crack, sooner or later.

As to why some sooner than others? Something like a clutch basket out of balance could cause it. Stuff like that.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

swooshdave said:
They all crack, sooner or later.

Man that's a tough statemenet to counter - if you are correct.

So the shell's that I have and have seen that are not cracked, it's just a matter of time?

swooshdave said:
As to why some sooner than others? Something like a clutch basket out of balance could cause it. Stuff like that.

I would think that potential imbalance would be a fart in a wind storm compared to the shock loads due to rear wheel skipping upon downshifts. Again, my opinion here but I believe these shock loads due to rear wheel skipping are more brutal on a gear box than aggressive clutch use at speed.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

Dances with Shrapnel said:
My question "Why is the crack there" was more about cause rather than location but yes, paper thin, but why?

My question would be after 40+ years of heat cycling and maybe the odd over-stress why aren't all gearbox cases cracked by now?

Many owners find the crack but it doesn't appear to cause problems in normal use as I think we'd hear more reports about failed cases if that were so.



Dances with Shrapnel said:
the fact that it is paper thin (design issue)

To leave such a thin area between two bearings seems to be somewhat of a design flaw, maybe someone got their sums wrong? But may not have been a problem when the box only had to cope with around 35 BHP, just as layshaft bearing break up wasn't a problem until the box had to handle the power output from the Commando.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

L.A.B. said:
Many owners find the crack but it doesn't appear to cause problems in normal use as I think we'd hear more reports about failed cases if that were so.

Fair enough statement. So maybe benign.

Again, what to do or better still, what to recommend to someone else when the shell is empty and in hand? It is certainly repairable and certainly serviceable (after repairing) but I am not going to recommend that rwalker28 just use it as is.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

My question would be after 40+ years of heat cycling and maybe the odd over-stress why aren't all gearbox cases cracked by now?

NO ; thats the Riders ! :P :D
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

I had my MKIII crack in the same place, but the counter-shaft snapped and lay-shaft bent also, presumably from clutching up wheelies...
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

Alrighty something I'm most expert opinionated on, broken drive train components. AMC shell is as much or if not a bit more properly designed for indefinite service as the dumb atom splitting axle. Applying hobot logic and findings to what I now call the AMC cleavage. To part as much as join. I'm in Swoohes camp on this, its just a matter of time. I have a long list, 3 pages of vendors I collected world wide d/t crank BF and AMC shell repair or replacement. There are literally piles of cracked and worn bores AMC shells in vendor shops all over the world. Call a few biggies if ya doubt me - again.

Even intact what structural support can such a thin section provide? Do ya really think that thin bridge is whats keeping the bulk of the surround metal from going separate ways. I don't think so. Welding is for the birds here, unless can build up more support bulk, not, and well known to weaken-soften Al - witness the head welding reports. I'd go with JBW if it cracked to leak and warm cases and use magnets to draw it in deep to set up, a few days.

The real issue is the bores tight round enough to restrain races from spinning and line boring accurate enough if wallowed out from prior spinning, but what to fill in with that don't weaken and distort, comoz says JBW here too.

My destructive investigations for my expert opinion is the fracture damage is not do too skipping rear tire down shifts or clutch drop wheelie red line launches but doing this with too worn and loose bushes so clutch basket can be seen to wobble plus just one good over tight primary chain event. I find that w/o the sure even supporting bush fit the shaft shift off center more to bow so the shaft ends lever and wobble the bearings apart. Snap.

I've done all of the above and took teeth off cogs and bent shafts and augered out the bores but so far no cracked cleavage. So If'n me I'd just renew everything but the cleavage and do it again at first hints of basket wobble.
I had a Qualife repaired by Ken Canaga that had almost torn its lower mounted bolt boss off one end and cracked the other, its bores are visibly scored by races spinning but by golly its same size cleavage is intact. I got so pissed at my first shell with loose bores the bearings fell out cold I bashed the main shaft one right out the back side full circle but dang web is still intact. Go figure - they weren't made to last anyway, just a stop gap for the Rotary wonder.

Oh yeah results of world wide pestering reveals Atlas shell half the cost and twice as easy to fit w/o the stupid thick washer spacer extra hassle mass.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

hobot said:
Even intact what structural support can such a thin section provide? Do ya really think that thin bridge is whats keeping the bulk of the surround metal from going separate ways. I don't think so. Welding is for the birds here, unless can build up more support bulk, not, and well known to weaken-soften Al - witness the head welding reports. I'd go with JBW if it cracked to leak and warm cases and use magnets to draw it in deep to set up, a few days.

Other than welding is putting in a better material than what was there in the first place. Softer does not necessarily mean weaker; more important is durability. Welding and machining also "fixes" any loose bearing bore issues.

Fundamental problem with a crack is that it is the perfect stress riser.

hobot said:
There are literally piles of cracked and worn bores AMC shells in vendor shops all over the world.
Which (if factual) nicely points out that they did not use them because they were cracked. This is my recommendation, don't use if cracked unless you are willing to weld and repair.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

Quit your sweet politeness with me DWS, call a few major names in Nortondoom suppliers - see if they tell ya too - by far its the bores wallowed out that does in most shells not the stress riser web cracking through. Yours didn't blow up even with a leaker crack and we don't yet know if it really stayed un cracked where able to see. What would be most valuable info you have - over my head- is how the bores can be restored in line and not cost as much as another shell. I am of opinion that lack of maintenance is main source of cracks as they do show up in non racers too. Softer compliant re-weld makes sense though if indeed it stifles cracks and keeps bores tight and round.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

hobot said:
Quit your sweet politeness with me DWS, call a few major names in Nortondoom suppliers - see if they tell ya too - by far its the bores wallowed out that does in most shells not the stress riser web cracking through. Yours didn't blow up even with a leaker crack and we don't yet know if it really stayed un cracked where able to see. What would be most valuable info you have - over my head- is how the bores can be restored in line and not cost as much as another shell. I am of opinion that lack of maintenance is main source of cracks as they do show up in non racers too. Softer compliant re-weld makes sense though if indeed it stifles cracks and keeps bores tight and round.

Well as you say, JB Weld can fill out larger gaps in bearings housings and stop leaks and Locktite bearing compound for lesser gaps. So those should be easy fixes.

Too much slop between the bearing and case would need welding and machining the bores.

The OP asked about serviceability and repairability of a gear box shell with a crack as shown in his pictures. You are saying there are loads of shells in shops around the world (or something to that effect) with cracked or wallowed out bearing bosses - so they are out of service.

Either they can be repaired or they cannot. Seems like all these shops chose to bin them and replace; at least that's what it sounds like. It certainly does not sound like they put them in service as "OK" to use. Maybe all the cracked and wallowed out shells in shops were due to either vendor liability matters or cost to repair versus replace with new old stock. You see this all the time.

Not sure what you mean by lack of maintenance as being the main source of cracks.
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

Back in early 2000's I found used decent Cdo shells for ~$500, Atlas for~$250 which I bought and used in Peel in her prime. I asked enough venders about repairing the piles they had, like say Fred at Old Brits or Phil at Fair Spares, British Spares[sp] in NZ and Norvil in England > to be told not worth it and not that successful by those trying it. If you have a repair process that don't cost a few hundred over the price of the bad core then there's a bunch waiting to be recovered for the price of scrap. JBW wouldn't stop the stress riser once started but maybe ole Muggy Supply has something to meld the wounds and fill the wallowed bores but that still leaves accurate restoring of bores. btw AMC = Associated Motor Cycles.

http://www.muggyweld.com/?view=aluminum

video cast Al transmission crack filling. Hope the ugly is only surface deep.
http://www.muggyweld.com/?view=super5clip9

here's old Norton Notice newsletter with other AMC shell weaknesses to catch and attend too, scroll to Allan's Wrench...
http://www.nortonclub.com/Newsletter/vo ... -lores.pdf

If we'd just behave are selves and fly low and slow - what would there be to remember so well...
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

The olde ' original numbers ' trick may well define the course of action . weld or replace . Some uprated caseings available these days ? ? .

The bearing fit Loctite says 4 thou , take up . for a short term repair , if youre not trying to tear the wheels off it .
Id certainly check if the blankety crack goes all the way to the outer face . The old aircraft trick is , drill a hole at the end of the crack .
Suitable for CZ motocrossers and other quetionable contrivances . Late in the day Rod price gassed it out of the hairpin . Youre supposed to button off for the drop off .
It'd been a l o n g d a y , full on it shot 20 ft out , and stopped .Then went D O W N 20 ft . That got his attention . :) seen a well used CZ 250 front rim ? ? :shock: :lol:

DONT throw the CASE out . Plenty of shelves available ? .
 
Re: Drat! Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Si

Drat!  Crack in Gearbox Between Main and Lay on Drive Side


I've put 5000 miles on this one, as is, not leaking yet
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top