Crank Case Oil Conclusion of research

Bobstheoilguy.com is a wealth of information! I am still digesting chapters 1-7 and certainly not ready to even look at his exam. But here is what I have taken away regarding my Commando. Since 90% of engine wear is at starting and thinner oil stays in between parts longer multi viscosity is the way to go as this keeps the recommendation of 50 weight at operating temperature as well. Since Racing Oils have no detergent in them and my Commando likely has varnish and carbon buildup I am going to sway (Unless later research or someone on the forum) toward Mineral Oil and change it often. The current blend I have in mind is two quarts Castrol 20W-50, and One Castrol SAE50 . In order to get my zinc I will add 1/3 of a bottle (108 ML) of Rislone Engine Oil Supplement. We can get away with this because our clutch is not in the crank case. I believe Synthetics (Esp. Red Line Oil) are probably a better selection, but for me keeping fresh oil and more money in my wallet is more important. Questions remain, how do I know if my oil has been compromised at all and when do I need to change it, and should I add more Rislone per there recommendation?

Unless your bike burns a lot of oil a good synthetic like Mobil 1 v-twin oil may be cheaper in the long run.
Due to the fact that it stays usable longer than conventional oil you will not need to change as often and it will need no additives.

IE, I use Mobil 1 v-twin 20-50 weight and change it at around 5000 miles or once a year -whichever comes soonest. It stays clean and works well. Due to the thick base the bike uses less oil. Jim

Hmmm..... I don't remember how many forum members there are but I'm thinking your good for a different answer from every other one!

gtsun said:

Hmmm..... I don't remember how many forum members there are but I'm thinking your good for a different answer from every other one!

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Very True, but so much knowledge and experience here. I like to gather as much info as I can digest, squirt out the best and try to come to a conclusion that works for me

I might pre-exist The Oil Guy's limited background so mention that engines prior to detergent oil collected a lot of hydrocarbon poylmers to bind the metal dust in the stuff called sludge so when detergent oils hit the market it tended to break loose clots of sludge that then clogged passages that then hurt engine parts. This is when oil filters become common, to filter passage blocking size stuff but very little to do with friction particle filtering. There is no downside to detergent oils in our engines except when working as intended the detergent suspends the carbonized polymers and broken up smaller free radicals [acid PH + charged missing an electron or 2, so hungry to grab electrons from yet non reacted metal surfaces] to darken the oil faster than non detergent till so congested it uses up the alkaline buffering additive package [extra electron donators and aceptors] its time to change before the redox reactions eat away at surfaces to cause both more wear size friction particles plus pitting-flaking removal off smooth hardened surfaces. The only way to know when its really time to change oil or not is oil analysis, other wise we generally err on the too often renewing of oil time/costs. Racers often over heat oil in tight hi loaded friction/shearing spaces and hi rpm tearing up oil moleclues so no need of detergent as they are kept clean by frequent parts inspection and replacement so get$ new oil very often. We don't have to worry about engine oil in primary case and even if ya put hi Zinc/Phos and friction modified oil in 1' case, at the propper fill level it don't get into the clutch plates though of course the gear box lube can and does. As you state most friction wear occurs on low on no oil pressure starts and idle so wear is more a chemical reaction when shut off and time spent below cam oil wedge rpm which about instantly removes any nano pads laid down after over boiling temps reached on the surfaces we are concerned with. The only value of ZADP is for very short intervals of no oil or low oil pressure and then takes some time to build back up. Changing oil filters on a Commando is important to inspect after an initial start up but after that can reuse for many oil changes as long as there is concern your sludge production is so much it could clog an oil passage. To filter the friction causing particles of size that can get in friction spaces requires a bypass filter. Mix & match oils for good-ish oil pressure per temps of engine and state of engine parts clearances. If you idle slow for a few seconds after start up to clear wet sump before getting into battery charging rpm then it don't matter the ZADP levels as you removed its only opportunity to actually protect during instants of no or low oil pressure intervals. Put that in Oil Guy's blog and see if he don't agree completely.

mooskie said:

Since Racing Oils have no detergent in them and my Commando likely has varnish and carbon buildup I am going to sway (Unless later research or someone on the forum) toward Mineral Oil and change it often.

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Where did you get that idea? All the racing oils (everything from Kendall petroleum based to Redline synthetic) I've used have had detergents. They usually differ from the detergents in normal motor oils, to suit the conditions in race engines, but they are still there. I talked to the folks at Redline about this a couple decades ago, and they explained the differences to me, but I don't remember the details. I'm not suggesting that you should use them in street bikes, just clearing up some misinformation. There may well be race oils without detergents, but I don't know of any except maybe the old Castrol real Castor (not the modern blended stuff) racing oils. Used to be, back in the '50s, you still had to chose between detergent and non-detergent oil, and it was accepted gospel that you had to break in a new engine on single weight non-detergent oil. That idea has long since disappeared.

Ken

general consensus amongst the forum is to change engine oil every 1000 or so miles

to use regular dyno and not synthetic as it is a waste of money

all oil, syn or dyno gets dirty from air and combustion blow by

20-50 castro or valvoline without zinc or with additive is best considered opinion here

this ain't the space shuttle so no need to agonize over esoterics

1up3down said:

20-50 castro or valvoline without zinc or with additive is best considered opinion here

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You did mean "with zinc or ...", right?

Ken

1up3down said:

this ain't the space shuttle so no need to agonize over esoterics

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LMAO. Once I had a backstage pass at Johnson Space Center (this was in the mid-90s) and there was a guy whose job it was to place the velcro on the surfaces in the shuttle's cabin and flight deck. Pretty sure did it to the mm... or maybe to hundredths...

Unless you are working on a boy scout merit badge for Junior Oil Chemist, forget the additives. If you believe you need more ZDDP, buy oil with more in it. Pouring in some ZDP (or whatever) changes the entire additive package in the oil; it doesn't just "add" Zddp because it reacts with everything else. You can lose the effectiveness of other parts of the package. ALSO, pouring something into the oil does not mean it "combines" properly with the oil. There have been several tests showing that in some cases, additives can end up as a separate layer in the oil pan/tank.

WAAAY to much worrying about oil. It's worse than wet sump worrying. And that's pretty bad!

Archaic engine design + some miles = wear on cylinders and rings = blowby. Only way to get rid of the byproducts is change the oil frequently.

htown16 said:

Archaic engine design + some miles = wear on cylinders and rings = blowby. Only way to get rid of the byproducts is change the oil frequently.

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Only real way to get rid of the byproducts is to rebuild the motor properly. Then use good oil.

Hehe seems lost on most - that beside hobot not changing oil seasonally just topping off for many 1000 miles, highly respected comnoz relaying same length of oil use wisdom is reflexly ignored-written over with advice to change every 6 Roadster tank fill ups and likely the oil filters too just like the TV ads tell ya to do mindlessly. Dig into references about how much ZADP amounts that tend to increases corrosion and prevents it protective layer formation too. The few who had oil analyized know its wasteful to follow the politically correct frequency of oil changes I read about on every oil Norton group.

Here see if your inexperienced mechanical proudness attitude can stand these references and the harm being done treating a Norton as if was a live baby with dirty diapers. Even The Oil Guy agree's with hobot and comnoz.
https://www.google.com/#q=too+fregent+oil+changes
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... er=1900212

Hey Hobot,

You keep using the initials ZADP, but mainly I see reference to ZDDP. I am sure you have good reason; please enlighten a dumb old dirt farmer from Ohio...

Thank you!

Here see if your inexperienced mechanical proudness attitude can stand these references and the harm being done treating a Norton as if was a live baby with dirty diapers. Even The Oil Guy agree's with hobot and comnoz.

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nice post, Steve

so now you, the voice of extensive mechanical experience, can tell others who change at 1000 miles that it is they who are "inexperienced" and have a "proudness of attitude" and are doing "harm" by changing oil

any idea of just how you come across to your fellow posters on this forum, Steve?

why, some might consider you to be an arrogant and nasty person, but you just know it all better, huh?

Ugh my ADHD dylexic typo from digging too deep into this protective additive to find its as much or more dependent on the phosphorus content as zinc. Look up Zinc Phosphorous nano pads, but don't expect brief few pages of searches to find it. If you don't get engine to full heat for a decent period of time then it don't matter how much ZADD is added.

Iup/3dn consider how annoying it is to me [and others] getting the first slap put down attitude from those claiming to know better by recommending excessive oil and filter changes, implying those who don't follow their severe disciplines are lazy or ignorant and damaging. I did not look to see who posted 1000 mile intervals, might of been you I don't care, but I suspect I'd get another reflex put down on my advice-practice if not for comnoz stating he changes oil 5x's longer intervals than "best practice" advise by snug but confused posters w/o any back up why. If ya read up on this there is some down side by not following my advice. So if anything I should be thanked for pointing out an issue I've never read from anyone else here. I did put some grit in my post just to keep those too smug continuing on their mis guided practice eating their engines faster than otherwise.

Just throwing this out but what about time element and length of trips. With three old Brit bikes on the road plus my Sportster, some of them see less than 1000 miles a year. Going five years between changes just seems a little unsettling, especially if there are significant layup periods. Wonder what kind of miles average Commando owner rides in a year. Is it maybe coincidence that a yearly oil change and 1000 miles coninsides.

So our feather weight champ revealed the quoter. Ugh, 1up/3dn I too was aligned with best practice to always try to keep new oil inside \ only avoiding it d/t lazy and hassle and cost on all my engines, usually 2x's a year as seasons change, but deep down I thot I was risking engine life so am recently relieved these winter heated oil threads here led led me to eventually find out I was just being a worry wart from being lectured on other less polite lists. You can not just go by the mounts of ZADP as the Zn-Ph chemistry is not one exact molecule but a complex of em so a ^range^ of them are used for various applications mostly having to do with cost and the expected temperatures of the surfaces concerned with. The layer is not quite like metal plating, ie: once put down it stays there, instead its more an equilibrium of laying down and lifting off tiny "pads" having little to d/t with oil pressure or metal contact. By and large though popular engines have similar conditions inside so likely mixing and matching this and that ain't gonna bother each other much but could be lowering each best benefits some. I have not been able to find images of these this year but they look like squaty flat topped cones in random patterns like you'd see grass vary in density [not height] across a large mowed yard or pasture. Btw the images were inside a research paper not in google images plus my brain was still using the ending element P as do the chemists instead of oil salesmen. Use the terms in these to dig into more than I care to know, or might get tested on it, ugh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate
https://www.oronite.com/pdfs/ZDTP_fnWeb.pdf

As too the time factor w/o much mileage, even harder to find info on that which goes back to redox acid alkaline pH currents of corrosion battery cell action at microscopic grain level so moisture and even only 1000 mile oil not best to leave for storage, yet 1000 mile oil we now know is still pretty fresh so again not likely a big deal as 5000 mile oil would be. The micro pitting becomes macro flaking at some point even if kept in oil wedge no metal contact rpm all the time. One reason its so hard to find online info on this is the modern oil packages are darn good, at least for the catalytic crowd.

Boron has finally been developed to market so look into that for next round of oil threads.

htown16 said:

Just throwing this out but what about time element and length of trips. With three old Brit bikes on the road plus my Sportster, some of them see less than 1000 miles a year. Going five years between changes just seems a little unsettling, especially if there are significant layup periods. Wonder what kind of miles average Commando owner rides in a year. Is it maybe coincidence that a yearly oil change and 1000 miles coninsides.

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I would change oil either at mileage or at least once a year. If in your country you don't ride in the winter months, I would change the oil before you store the bike.

Charles

Analysisation Paralyzation! Now TMI in texting terms! Not the space shuttle. Not a baby with a dirty diaper, But Norton is my baby, and has as many moving parts as I care to maintain properly. All you Mcy Gearhead Guru's, in one sentence, What do you put in your Crankcase?