Caramel sauce in my transmission

My 1974 Roadster has been sitting in my barn for over 30 years and hadn't been started in about 20 years. I got the motor running last week but still have more to do before it's drivable.

I was shocked when I drained the transmission and out came a caramel colored mixture of water and nasty looking globules of "shmootz". I must have really stirred it up when I started the engine.

In an attempt to clean things out I have run several quarts of clean motor oil through it. The drainings are looking cleaner but there is still lots of "shmootz" coming out.

Am I on the right track ? Is there some other fluid I could try that would clean things out faster or should I just stick with the motor oil ? I'm planning on a few more quarts of motor oil then back to trans oil and frequent changes untl it looks clean.

Do the transmission internals move when it is running in neutral or does it need to be in gear to stir up the oil ?

Thanks for any ideas.

Scott

The gear change mechanisim inside the inner cover seems to suffer from condensation corosion , at the least you should pop the outer cover off and check the return spring, but a new lay shaft bearing wouldn't go amiss.

LIkely vitals above oil level rusted up and may hang up, but to better flush use gasoline or diesel, then ATF or gear lube. Well ok to really flush must open it all up.
Water condensation and microbial action plus corrosion all combined- yuk.
The shift lever pawl spring will be rusted and likely break soon so must at least peek in the inner cover, providing you can get kick lever off, ugh. I clear paint all the stuff above oil level now. Can only remove thick rust so many times before threads dissolve. Wonder whats in the crankcase and forks?

Best wishes.

The crankcase and fork oil has already been changed. There was moisture in the forks but nothing noticable in the engine. There was a small amount of sludge and water in the chaincase.

The transmission surprised me because I don't remember seeing anything unusual through the inspection hole ... prior to starting the engine. I don't see any rust through the inspection hole but even with a light and mirror the view is limited.
I've already had the kickstarter and the shift lever off but was afraid to remove the outer cover because I've never done it before. I became risk averse sometime after 50.

I was thinking about flushing it with gas or kerosene but didn't know if that would cause problems with any seals. Will anything fall out when I remove the outer cover? Is there a gasket I will need to replace ?

Thanks for the help.

The cover will come right off. Only have to watch when you are putting it back on- you'll see a half moon shaped thing which you have to make sure it is perpendicular to the spring. Gasket- depends on how it was sealed. I always seal mine up with some goop so they pretty much rip off, and I have to replace. You'll know whether it's good or not when you get the cover off.

I was thinking about flushing it with gas or kerosene but didn't know if that would cause problems with any seals. Will anything fall out when I remove the outer cover? Is there a gasket I will need to replace ?

Thanks for the help.[/quote]

Seals???? dont worry about them , they will leak anyway

but was afraid to remove the outer cover because I've never done it before. I became risk averse sometime after 50.

Click to expand...

I was 48 in Ozarks buying my 1st Combat. Ever since then its been a test of pushing my risk taking and mechanical competence testing by ongoing trial and error learning curves, still going on at almost age 59 now. Best wishes your sense of self worth increases with successful fettering of all things Commando.

If you got the kicker off then you should be able to handle the more tedious replacing of outter cover, and what you find hidden to clear up.
Gear box does not need or require any gaskets, just a thin layer sealant, so don't let lack of gaskets stop you. To slow the kicker oil weep, can put a cigarett foil fold or two in the O-ring groove then apply RTV around O-ring and slide in the grearsed shaft and wait over night to move it. Works about as well as machined in oil seal. Main head ache leak is along the main shaft out sleeve gear bushe to sling into friction plates.

Pawl spring diddling is an art, basically spring legs must be adjusted essentially parallel with just enough gap from pawl to let it swivel freely. Outter cover tends to hang on the shafts and seals some but wiggling and light bumping it should suddenly about fully seat for sense of joy as your own mechanic.

I put a pint of mineral spirits in my gearbox and ran it up and down the gears on the centerstand. It rinsed it out really good. Drain it once. Let it drip dry a little and add a good gear oil of your choice. Run it under load and check for contamination. Repeat as needed. Or Rebuild!

I would flush it with kerosene and THEN rebuild it. If you are putting just enough miles on it to figure out what needs work then I would flush, fill and ride. But if you are planning to flush it, refill it and ignore it, I wouldn't go there. Just my 2 cents. The hardest part for me when I tore mine down was finding a tip long enough for my impact driver that I wouldn't scar the case with it while getting the screws to break lose. If something falls out when you take the cover off, then you needed to be in there anyway.

Russ

Thanks for the great ideas, all.
I'm going to try a combination of "all of the above".
I just want to get it moving right now. I'll tear into it with more gusto this winter.

"If something falls out when you take the cover off, then you needed to be in there anyway."
You are oh so right. I can figure out how to do it ... just being bashful.

Thanks,

Scott

Maybe I'm being too cautious in my old age, but a dodgy tranny is one thing I would not take a chance on. I'd say a complete teardown is in order.

I filled it with kerosene and drained it 5 times. While it was full I ran a small plastic tube inside and agitated the liquid with air. I left the last load in for several hours and when drained it was clear.
I left it all day today to dry (track day with my son) and I'm going to fill it with 90 wt tomorrow.
I did not remove the outer cover but I did inspect the inside with one of those colonoscopy type scopes. It looked very good with a minimal amount of rust. It seems to shift OK so I'm going to let it be for the moment so I can deal with other issues.

I agree completely with the need to be 100% confident in the transmission but at the moment I just want to get it moving so I can drive it up and down my very long driveway to do a rolling test. I am the original owner of this bike and it has less than 3000 miles on it.

When I can't resist the temtation and break down while driving around the block you can all tell me "I told you so"

Scott

Scott, if it was me and it has been a couple times, If shifting ok and not hanging up, just creep up on riding loads till you start forgetting about it. If it goes bad well then you know its time to dig in and give us a call. Only two real dangers I've either read about or had, is lay bearing fractures for lock up and/or 1st gear very thin bush wear allowing to pop out of gear when loads neutralized to release bike momentum just when not wanting it going rather slow in 1st. There is usually some pre-hints but usually so mild you just strike it up to your own too relaxed mis-attention to shift correctly.

NO! STOP!

Apparently water infiltrates by way of condensation or out right rain water traveling down the clutch cable.

Getting all the water out is NOT your problem - you've done that.

Your problem is that the cages and balls of the bearings supporting the transmission shafts are now junk. They might turn for a few miles but they WILL go out.

The moment a bearing loses its race, your shafts will go into misalignment and you WILL be buying gears, or shafts, or an entire transmission.

You have no choice but to pull it out, replace the bearings. They're cheap compared to the rest of it.

xbackslider,

Why are the bearings and races now junk ?

Scott

Rust. The bearings are not submerged in the transmission oil; therefore they have been exposed to the moisture.

Interestingly, if we were talking about a crankcase that had "wet" sumped (actually oil sumped) because it sat and sat, and then got water in it, well then it might be OK to take a chance since the mains presumably would have been submerged in oil.

I understand your point.
Thanks for the explanation.

Scott

Oil floates on water

I will report my findings, with pics, when I finally take it apart.